Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Legendary: A Marvel Deck Building Game» Forums » General

Subject: Calculating VP rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Brandon Wickstrom
msg tools
mb
Hey guys,

Can someone help explain to me why scheme twists work against you when calculating VP. In fact, why are they worth the most?

It seems to me that thematically they do not make sense to count against you. It is the one thing that you cannot control when counting against your VP. I understand why bystanders or villains that have escaped should count against you. I think they should count more. But why scheme twists.

I propose a new way of totaling VP. Like normal count all the VP in your victory pile. -1 for any villain left in the city (cant have baddies running around the city). -2 for bystanders taken away. -3 for villains who escaped. -* for any heroes that are KO'ed, *=their recruit cost (Can't have any or our precious heroes be knocked out).

All of these are controllable by the player. All of these are things that you are trying to stop in the game from happening. If you are a good and skilled player then you wont lose any VP at the end. Unlike now when scheme twists come out and you have no control over that. Why are we punished for scheme twists?



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
ray slover
United States
Elgin
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
That's only used For Solo Play. And you don't have to calculate it. Scheme twists are something that you have ZERO control over, so I think that the -3 and the -1 Solo Play scoring should be flipped.

I've only ever used solo play as a way to see how the various heroes interacted with each other.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon Wickstrom
msg tools
mb
rmslover wrote:
That's only used For Solo Play. And you don't have to calculate it. Scheme twists are something that you have ZERO control over, so I think that the -3 and the -1 Solo Play scoring should be flipped.

I've only ever used solo play as a way to see how the various heroes interacted with each other.


What are you talking about? What is only for solo play? You calculate VP for multiplayer too. VP for solo or multiplayer is the same.

And what do you means -3 and -1 Solo play scoring should be flipped?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sterling Johnson
United States
Beatrice
Nebraska
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
From the rule book: A scheme twist card represents the scheme moving forward towards victory for the evil mastermind.

I think that's a perfectly good reasons to have them count negatively against you when scoring. I think the reason this is done for solo and not multiplayer is because you have a better chance of getting a better tuned deck to beat the Mastermind in solo. Sure you don't control when they come up but you have fairly decent control on how quick you beat the Mastermind. If you didn't have to worry about negative points I'd focus more on clearing the city before going after the Mastermind. As it is now in solo I want defeat the Mastermind as quick as possible so I'm not losing my vp due to schemes. I only focus on the city if I don't have the attack to go after the Mastermind or if villains are close to escaping.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Fleming
United States
Orange
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
He means that the penalties (-3 for Scheme Twists, -1 for escaped bystanders, etc) only apply to the Solo Game. You don't use those as part of your score for 2+ players.

As for why the Scheme Twist results in such a large point loss in the Solo Game, my assumption is that it's a kind of timer mechanic. The idea being that the more Scheme Twists that have been pulled, the longer it took you to defeat the Mastermind. I think they're trying to push the player towards being efficient in defeating the Mastermind in a timely manner. It also puts more pressure on the player to choose defeating the Mastermind, to end the game faster and prevent more Scheme Twists, and stopping an escaping villain. I'm also betting that it's designed to prevent players from exploiting the game. If Scheme Twists didn't have such a large penalty, a player that has built a deck that reliably produces attack, that player could rack up points by ignoring the mastermind until the end of the game and focusing on defeating villains as soon as they appear, which would result in point inflation.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ralph Berrett
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I can see the number of Scheme Twist denoting how quickly you won. Few twists you handily defeated the villain, many you just barely won. This effects your score.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon Wickstrom
msg tools
mb
Why do you guys think that you do not have to subtract from your VP in multiplayer games. Page 20 of the rulebook shows how to deal with scoring. It applies to both multiplayer and solo.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Knobbly Savage
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If you look at this post by Devin, you'll see that he says that the subtractions are for for solo play only. The layout in the rule book is admittedly confusing, as it makes the 'Scoring' section seem like a separate section from 'Solo Play', when in fact it should be part of that section.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon Wickstrom
msg tools
mb
He didnt say solo play only. The person posting was playing solo. So Devin answered in such a way that reflected that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Knobbly Savage
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There would be no need to specify that if it applied to multiplayer as well.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacovis
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KnobblySavage wrote:
There would be no need to specify that if it applied to multiplayer as well.


Brandon, feel free to subtract points in multiplayer if you want, but that serves no purpose except to reduce everyone's score which is completely pointless because you're competing against each other and the scores only matter in their relation to the other players and those subtractions would apply to everyone.

"Hey man, I got 27 Points and you got 24 Points! Yes I win!" "No way man, you didn't get that many points! We forgot to subtract all the stuff.. let's see 5 scheme twists, 2 escaped villains, 2 bystanders carried away... That means we each subtract 25 points.... HA See you only got 2 points neener neener!!" It's completely pointless and just adds more math. But again, play your game however you'd like.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon Wickstrom
msg tools
mb
The reason you would subtract is so the game remains constant. If you subtract in solo mode you should subtract in multi player otherwise your multi player scores would be much higher than your solo.

If you didnt subtract what would be the main point of fighting villains in the city? You would get their victory points but thematically there is not much point to fighting villains unless the scheme called for it. It gives you incentive to fight villains when you know that if they escape you are going to lose VP.

And if what people are saying about scheme twists, that they represent the mastermind moving the scheme along then the multiplayer team should be penalized at the end of the game when totaling VP.

And Jacovis, I know I can play the game how I want. That is not the point. I wanted to clarify with people how they played, and what they thought. And just because I am debating with people what they say, does not mean I do not value what they are saying. I just want to come to a valid and logical conclusion.

Maybe someone from UD could help clarify?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael M.
United States
Bloomington-Normal
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've played a bunch of advanced solo games and never once calculated scheme twists. Oops?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon Wickstrom
msg tools
mb
M_Strauss wrote:
I've played a bunch of advanced solo games and never once calculated scheme twists. Oops?


haha, that's awesome. When I first started playing I didnt record VP at all. I hated doing it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darth Ed
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Point of clarification:

You're using the wrong terminology.

Your total VPs is simply the sum of all the numbers in the little red circles on the cards in your victory pile.

Your score is your total VPs - (3 * the number of Scheme Twists drawn during the game) - (the number of Escaped Villains) - (4 * the number of Bystanders carried away by the Escaped Villains).

As for why the number of Scheme Twists is included in this scoring formula, I agree completely with what Jack Fleming wrote above here in this thread. It should roughly scale with the turn count.

I also agree with both Jacovis and Knobbly. The general consensus is that you should only subtract these quantities when you play solo. There's no point in doing so when you play multiplayer because all players would subtract the same amount. The only thing that matters is to compare your total VPs with the total VPs of the other player(s). I respectfully disagree with Brandon's post above that you should do it simply for the sake of consistency. I do not see any compelling reason to do so. I do not believe you can compare your multiplayer scores with your solo scores because they are very different gaming experiences.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon Wickstrom
msg tools
mb
DarthEd,

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

I still think you should subtract from your total VP in multiplayer. If you do not like the consistency theory then I think another reason would be thematically. If villains escape or the scheme twists come out then you all should be punished for it. There should be consequences for letting those things happen. Sure, there are escape triggers for some villains and twists do have triggers as well that hurt players but I think your VP should suffer too, just like solo play.

I also think the game should play the same solo or multiplayer. It makes the most sense to me, that if you calculate solo you calculate multiplayer.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Clevidence
United States
Woodburn
Oregon
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bwick503 wrote:
DarthEd,

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

I still think you should subtract from your total VP in multiplayer. If you do not like the consistency theory then I think another reason would be thematically. If villains escape or the scheme twists come out then you all should be punished for it. There should be consequences for letting those things happen. Sure, there are escape triggers for some villains and twists do have triggers as well that hurt players but I think your VP should suffer too, just like solo play.

I also think the game should play the same solo or multiplayer. It makes the most sense to me, that if you calculate solo you calculate multiplayer.


Then do so, by all means.

If you're into keeping records and comparing scores, then the key is consistency. I'm uninterested in comparing my multi- and single-player scores, but I'll be doing the full score calculation for my solo games and using the simpler method for multi-player sessions (no need to bore my teammates with the extra counting). That way the scoring history will have more meaning.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Devin Low
msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Brandon,

Thanks for the question and the debate. The Victory Point penalties in the Solo Play section only apply to Solo Play, and not to multiplayer. We probably should have made the "Scoring" header font a little smaller, to make it more clear that this Scoring section is a part of the Solo Play rules.

As for the reasons why the VP penalties are there in Solo Play, Jack's post is a spot-on summary of the reasons why:
Quote:
As for why the Scheme Twist results in such a large point loss in the Solo Game, my assumption is that it's a kind of timer mechanic. The idea being that the more Scheme Twists that have been pulled, the longer it took you to defeat the Mastermind. I think they're trying to push the player towards being efficient in defeating the Mastermind in a timely manner. It also puts more pressure on the player to choose defeating the Mastermind, to end the game faster and prevent more Scheme Twists, and stopping an escaping villain. I'm also betting that it's designed to prevent players from exploiting the game. If Scheme Twists didn't have such a large penalty, a player that has built a deck that reliably produces attack, that player could rack up points by ignoring the mastermind until the end of the game and focusing on defeating villains as soon as they appear, which would result in point inflation.


Thanks for the notes, and may the VP penalties not pummel your scores too harshly! zombie

Devin Low meeple
Designer, Legendary
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.