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Subject: 1xRaymond Flint in Hostage decks rss

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Michael Redston
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Why aren't people running this? If you play against Weyland or suspect Profiteering/illicit ICE shenanigans, you can simply take Flint Hostage and gain free HQ accesses. Worst case scenario, paying 2c and 1 click to reveal a card isn't the worst deal in the world (if you really need that reveal). If deck space is an issue, I personally would cut Masanori. That's just me though, as Masanori hasn't been working out that well for me and he often required me to remove a tag he gave in order to save my Professional Contacts.
 
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dan dargenio
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I am not a big fan of hostage in criminal decks in general, mostly because it seems to be like it makes you tag-vulnerable and you're usually giving up economy to tutor up economy cards, but as a big fan of infiltration, this doesn't sound like a bad plan, not so much because of BP but because of jinteki. If you're playing against jinteki PE, most of their big scary things are install-adv-adv traps, (cerebral overwriter, mainly). If you can not be afraid of those things, it takes a lot of wind out of their sails.
 
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Captain Frisk
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For me - its not wanting to burn 2 clicks, $3 and 1 card on something that may not get me any accesses. It's a pretty big tempo hit for something you aren't going to guarantee access with.

It may be something to build around some day - frame job, HQ interface, Raymond Flint, Tallie P, Activist Support....?
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Jason Hamner
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I've tried it and am just not a huge fan. He's an expensive Infiltration against many decks... and even if they're taking bad pub they could gleefully score that Hostile Takeover with a handful of Snares.
 
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Grish Noren
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I like him better in a sniping deck as a 2 of alongside infiltration; not much elsewhere.
 
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Philip Goldfarb Styrt
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JWHamner wrote:
I've tried it and am just not a huge fan. He's an expensive Infiltration against many decks... and even if they're taking bad pub they could gleefully score that Hostile Takeover with a handful of Snares.


Since that requires Weyland (Hostile Takeover) splashing Snare!, and then also having only/mostly those in hand at the right moment, that's probably a pretty niche danger. That said, he's also definitely niche; even a 1x is probably somewhat meta-driven (if your local meta has a lot of bad publicity, it's not a bad idea).
 
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Dave Sutcliffe
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mediohxcore wrote:
I am not a big fan of hostage in criminal decks in general, mostly because it seems to be like it makes you tag-vulnerable and you're usually giving up economy to tutor up economy cards, but as a big fan of infiltration, this doesn't sound like a bad plan, not so much because of BP but because of jinteki. If you're playing against jinteki PE, most of their big scary things are install-adv-adv traps, (cerebral overwriter, mainly). If you can not be afraid of those things, it takes a lot of wind out of their sails.


I think you misunderstand why Criminals play Hostage - it's precisely to limit their exposure to tags by reducing the number of resources in their deck to just a few options with a couple of Hostages to find the one for that matchup. Hostage doesn't put Resources front and centre in your deck, it pushes them out to a sideline.


Anyway. Raymond Flint is rubbish. I put 1x in my Hostage just long enough to figure out there was no deck I wanted him against more than my existing Connection options. He's just not a good card.
 
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Chris Wood
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What makes you think i'm not running it?
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mathew rynich
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Magicdave wrote:

Anyway. Raymond Flint is rubbish. I put 1x in my Hostage just long enough to figure out there was no deck I wanted him against more than my existing Connection options. He's just not a good card.


Do you run other expose cards? He is a tutor-able expose effect card that can be installed so it doesn't clog up your hand. Is he the best thing since sliced bread?.. no, but he definitely has utility. His BP effect is cool as well in certain decks. I'm not sure why you think he's rubbish. Maybe you weren't running into situations where he would be appropriate to tutor out.

I'd rather take a tempo hit than take a bunch of brain damage. I ran an HB deck a week ago with Mandatory Upgrade and Cerebral Overwriter. There were times where I couldn't Siphon or couldn't Siphon enough. Running an advanced card when he had money always seemed too risky, but I could never afford to let him get off an Upgrade.

Putting at least one copy in a hostage deck seems like a good play to me. Putting him in an HQI/Nerve Agent deck also seems like a good play. It would make the corp reluctant to take BP with agendas in hand.
 
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Yi Sheng Siow
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He's reasonable as a 1-of in hostage decks only as a tutorable expose.
 
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Dave Sutcliffe
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phillosmaster wrote:
Magicdave wrote:

Anyway. Raymond Flint is rubbish. I put 1x in my Hostage just long enough to figure out there was no deck I wanted him against more than my existing Connection options. He's just not a good card.


Do you run other expose cards? He is a tutor-able expose effect card that can be installed so it doesn't clog up your hand. Is he the best thing since sliced bread?.. no, but he definitely has utility. His BP effect is cool as well in certain decks. I'm not sure why you think he's rubbish. Maybe you weren't running into situations where he would be appropriate to tutor out.

I'd rather take a tempo hit than take a bunch of brain damage. I ran an HB deck a week ago with Mandatory Upgrade and Cerebral Overwriter. There were times where I couldn't Siphon or couldn't Siphon enough. Running an advanced card when he had money always seemed too risky, but I could never afford to let him get off an Upgrade. Putting at least one copy in a hostage deck seems like a good play to me.


You shouldn't try to include cards for every eventuality - doing so will usually mean you make your deck worse in 98% of games just to make it better in the 2% of games where that situation occurs.

In the situation you describe you just balance the risks and rewards. Taking 3 brain damage isn't the end of the world, and depending on the gamestate could easily be preferable to letting him score Upgrades early.

I'd also say you definitely don't play Raymond just to use him as a 3-cost double-action expose effect. You play Raymond to access HQ cards.
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mathew rynich
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fair enough (though it really sucks recovering from 3 brain damage), but I've been running into a lot of trap heavy decks lately. It doesn't seem like much of a fringe case to me and if he's the only expose card in my deck then I'm not really losing too much. My old plan was two Infiltrations or Sat Uplinks (to make sure I got at least 1) so I'm actually making out as far as deck slots.
 
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Yi Sheng Siow
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just play 3 infiltration and 3 same old thing... it's better than going the hostage route.
 
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Paul Imboden
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Magicdave wrote:
You shouldn't try to include cards for every eventuality - doing so will usually mean you make your deck worse in 98% of games just to make it better in the 2% of games where that situation occurs.


Learned this point the hard way last weekend. Truth.
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Steven Tu
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Raymond Flint is a cool effect that doesn't happen too often at all, not sure if it's worth a slot until the meta MUST HAVE BAD PUB in all decks. Even then Blackmail will be cooler
 
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dan dargenio
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Magicdave wrote:
mediohxcore wrote:
I am not a big fan of hostage in criminal decks in general, mostly because it seems to be like it makes you tag-vulnerable and you're usually giving up economy to tutor up economy cards, but as a big fan of infiltration, this doesn't sound like a bad plan, not so much because of BP but because of jinteki. If you're playing against jinteki PE, most of their big scary things are install-adv-adv traps, (cerebral overwriter, mainly). If you can not be afraid of those things, it takes a lot of wind out of their sails.


I think you misunderstand why Criminals play Hostage - it's precisely to limit their exposure to tags by reducing the number of resources in their deck to just a few options with a couple of Hostages to find the one for that matchup. Hostage doesn't put Resources front and centre in your deck, it pushes them out to a sideline.


Anyway. Raymond Flint is rubbish. I put 1x in my Hostage just long enough to figure out there was no deck I wanted him against more than my existing Connection options. He's just not a good card.


hostage does anything but make you less vulnerable to tags! first of all youre likely playing it with pro contacts, and a 7 credit procons is about the most tag vulnerable thing you can do in the game next to kati with 18 sitting on her against nbn who could score a breaking or assn next turn and kill it.

if bank job or some other non tag vulnerable card were searchable with hostage, maybe it would mean youre playing a less vulnerable deck, but right now your options are stuff like masanori, li, uworld contacts, procons, and kati. ALL of these cards need to sit on the board for many turns to gain any value if you hostage for them. this means that if youre already floating, every hostage in your deck is just as much of a dead card as those econ resources. if youre playing 1 li 1 kati 1 contacts 2-3 hostage, youre a lot more tag vulnerable and less efficient than a crinal deck that just plays a few copies of kati.
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Dave Sutcliffe
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mediohxcore wrote:
Magicdave wrote:
mediohxcore wrote:
I am not a big fan of hostage in criminal decks in general, mostly because it seems to be like it makes you tag-vulnerable and you're usually giving up economy to tutor up economy cards, but as a big fan of infiltration, this doesn't sound like a bad plan, not so much because of BP but because of jinteki. If you're playing against jinteki PE, most of their big scary things are install-adv-adv traps, (cerebral overwriter, mainly). If you can not be afraid of those things, it takes a lot of wind out of their sails.


I think you misunderstand why Criminals play Hostage - it's precisely to limit their exposure to tags by reducing the number of resources in their deck to just a few options with a couple of Hostages to find the one for that matchup. Hostage doesn't put Resources front and centre in your deck, it pushes them out to a sideline.


Anyway. Raymond Flint is rubbish. I put 1x in my Hostage just long enough to figure out there was no deck I wanted him against more than my existing Connection options. He's just not a good card.


hostage does anything but make you less vulnerable to tags! first of all youre likely playing it with pro contacts, and a 7 credit procons is about the most tag vulnerable thing you can do in the game next to kati with 18 sitting on her against nbn who could score a breaking or assn next turn and kill it.

if bank job or some other non tag vulnerable card were searchable with hostage, maybe it would mean youre playing a less vulnerable deck, but right now your options are stuff like masanori, li, uworld contacts, procons, and kati. ALL of these cards need to sit on the board for many turns to gain any value if you hostage for them. this means that if youre already floating, every hostage in your deck is just as much of a dead card as those econ resources. if youre playing 1 li 1 kati 1 contacts 2-3 hostage, youre a lot more tag vulnerable and less efficient than a crinal deck that just plays a few copies of kati.


I'm not going to waste my time repeating it all, so please go and read my explanation of this in the 'Andromeda Wants to Lawyer Up' thread.
 
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Marc-Andre Blanchet
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I have seen plenty of games where I have 3+ tags and my Professional Contacts sits there, untrashed and quite usable. Or Kati with 6 credits. Even John Masanori is sometimes left alone for a few turns while I accrue tags.
 
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