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Subject: Precise or imprecise? rss

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Lots of people complain about drones, which can hover over a target almost indefinitely until they are alone and take them out with remarkable precision.

People also complain about barrel bombs, chemical weapons and biological weapons for being imprecise and causing too much collateral damage.

I guess we prefer death dealt out personally, by a soldier with his gun.

On the other hand kill one person with your bare hands and you will be punished as a murderer. Kill a hundreds or thousands of people with pollution and no one cares.

People are sure funny when it comes to how we emotionally calculate the death of another.
 
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Seth Iniguez
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frumpish wrote:
Lots of people complain about drones, which can hover over a target almost indefinitely until they are alone and take them out with remarkable precision.

People also complain about barrel bombs, chemical weapons and biological weapons for being imprecise and causing too much collateral damage.

I guess we prefer death dealt out personally, by a soldier with his gun.

On the other hand kill one person with your bare hands and you will be punished as a murderer. Kill a hundreds or thousands of people with pollution and no one cares.

People are sure funny when it comes to how we emotionally calculate the death of another.


I have no more problem with drones then any other conventional weapons technology, it is just their application.

It may be unfortunate for the poor side of a conflict that the rich side can kill them without risking casualties, but air power had already taken us in that direction.

They do have some spooky surveillance applications, but I do not consider the technology inherently bad.
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Boaty McBoatface
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People complain about what is politically expedient, drones are OK when our side orders them, wrong when your side does.

Yes (by the way) I thin there is a 'campaign for real war' mentality, war is (supposed to be) 'glorious' and 'an exiting adventure', all this new stuff smacks too much of murder (which is what war really is), they just want to pretend it's noble and necessary.
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My problem with drones is that the President has been using them in ways that are very quasi legal, even with generous 'War Powers' that the President has.

Sending a drone with missiles to attack and kill a target isn't being treated similarly as sending actual troops- American troops- to do the same thing. This bothers me- is it getting 'easier' for an American president to utilize violence as a means of achieving foreign policy goals without requiring Congressional approval- much less a declaration of war?

Its how drones are being used that bothers me, not their existence on the modern battlefield. In our desire to embrace the 'cheap technological solution' to the War on Terror, we are establishing some dangerous foreign policy precedents which, as other nations catch up technologically, we might wish we hadn't.

Darilian
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Darilian wrote:
My problem with drones is that the President has been using them in ways that are very quasi legal, even with generous 'War Powers' that the President has.

Sending a drone with missiles to attack and kill a target isn't being treated similarly as sending actual troops- American troops- to do the same thing. This bothers me- is it getting 'easier' for an American president to utilize violence as a means of achieving foreign policy goals without requiring Congressional approval- much less a declaration of war?

Its how drones are being used that bothers me, not their existence on the modern battlefield. In our desire to embrace the 'cheap technological solution' to the War on Terror, we are establishing some dangerous foreign policy precedents which, as other nations catch up technologically, we might wish we hadn't.

Darilian


That's an interesting take. I vastly prefer putting drones in the air than boots on the ground. But you're right, it's perhaps making the decisions too easy and in the process may risk making quicker, more error prone decisions - in terms of both policy and targets.
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CrankyPants wrote:
But you're right, it's perhaps making the decisions too easy and in the process may risk making quicker, more error prone decisions - in terms of both policy and targets.


Poor decision making in war took place before drones and will continue to take place. Look at George Bush's decision to go to war in Iraq for example. The guy was grasping at straws trying to come up with a rationale, and each time his rationale was discredited (yellow cake, aluminum tubes etc...) his team found a new excuse.
 
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CrankyPants wrote:
Darilian wrote:
My problem with drones is that the President has been using them in ways that are very quasi legal, even with generous 'War Powers' that the President has.

Sending a drone with missiles to attack and kill a target isn't being treated similarly as sending actual troops- American troops- to do the same thing. This bothers me- is it getting 'easier' for an American president to utilize violence as a means of achieving foreign policy goals without requiring Congressional approval- much less a declaration of war?

Its how drones are being used that bothers me, not their existence on the modern battlefield. In our desire to embrace the 'cheap technological solution' to the War on Terror, we are establishing some dangerous foreign policy precedents which, as other nations catch up technologically, we might wish we hadn't.

Darilian


That's an interesting take. I vastly prefer putting drones in the air than boots on the ground. But you're right, it's perhaps making the decisions too easy and in the process may risk making quicker, more error prone decisions - in terms of both policy and targets.

I don't think the technology inherently is easier except that it's being used that way. Deploying drones should be treated likedeploying troops. It's jst not.
 
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frumpish wrote:
Lots of people complain about drones, which can hover over a target almost indefinitely until they are alone and take them out with remarkable precision.

People also complain about barrel bombs, chemical weapons and biological weapons for being imprecise and causing too much collateral damage.

I guess we prefer death dealt out personally, by a soldier with his gun.

On the other hand kill one person with your bare hands and you will be punished as a murderer. Kill a hundreds or thousands of people with pollution and no one cares.

People are sure funny when it comes to how we emotionally calculate the death of another.


Intent matters. If you can distinguish the difference, then there really is no conversation to be had.

People don't complain about drones because the take the personal in your face aspect out of war (well so might), but the fact that they've become too easy to use with minimal oversight (and perhaps aren't as precise as some would like them to be - Of course you do have humans behind every trigger pull, so its still human error, not drone error).

Likewise, pollution is a byproduct of our society. I suppose their could be some dude out there who wants to choke our air with smog so he can sell canned air, but really? you're going to equate people dying from pollution with someone who pummels you to death with his hands?

It is funny though that we balk at the use of chemical weapons, but have no problem with slaughtering with bullets and bombs (see Syria).
 
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Darilian wrote:
My problem with drones is that the President has been using them in ways that are very quasi legal, even with generous 'War Powers' that the President has.

Sending a drone with missiles to attack and kill a target isn't being treated similarly as sending actual troops- American troops- to do the same thing. This bothers me- is it getting 'easier' for an American president to utilize violence as a means of achieving foreign policy goals without requiring Congressional approval- much less a declaration of war?

Its how drones are being used that bothers me, not their existence on the modern battlefield. In our desire to embrace the 'cheap technological solution' to the War on Terror, we are establishing some dangerous foreign policy precedents which, as other nations catch up technologically, we might wish we hadn't.

Darilian


What worries me is the disconnect of the people fighting the wars. If there was a conscription (is the correct word "draft"?) people would be more invested on a personal level. Who cares about what a couple of drones are doing abroad? When it's your own sons and daughters fighting, you care!
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dennisthebadger wrote:
Darilian wrote:
My problem with drones is that the President has been using them in ways that are very quasi legal, even with generous 'War Powers' that the President has.

Sending a drone with missiles to attack and kill a target isn't being treated similarly as sending actual troops- American troops- to do the same thing. This bothers me- is it getting 'easier' for an American president to utilize violence as a means of achieving foreign policy goals without requiring Congressional approval- much less a declaration of war?

Its how drones are being used that bothers me, not their existence on the modern battlefield. In our desire to embrace the 'cheap technological solution' to the War on Terror, we are establishing some dangerous foreign policy precedents which, as other nations catch up technologically, we might wish we hadn't.

Darilian


What worries me is the disconnect of the people fighting the wars. If there was a conscription (is the correct word "draft"?) people would be more invested on a personal level. Who cares about what a couple of drones are doing abroad? When it's your own sons and daughters fighting, you care!
As long as it is truly universal.
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dennisthebadger wrote:
Darilian wrote:
My problem with drones is that the President has been using them in ways that are very quasi legal, even with generous 'War Powers' that the President has.

Sending a drone with missiles to attack and kill a target isn't being treated similarly as sending actual troops- American troops- to do the same thing. This bothers me- is it getting 'easier' for an American president to utilize violence as a means of achieving foreign policy goals without requiring Congressional approval- much less a declaration of war?

Its how drones are being used that bothers me, not their existence on the modern battlefield. In our desire to embrace the 'cheap technological solution' to the War on Terror, we are establishing some dangerous foreign policy precedents which, as other nations catch up technologically, we might wish we hadn't.

Darilian


What worries me is the disconnect of the people fighting the wars. If there was a conscription (is the correct word "draft"?) people would be more invested on a personal level. Who cares about what a couple of drones are doing abroad? When it's your own sons and daughters fighting, you care!


That only matters if you outlaw all forms of unmanned combat. Otherwise you're just sticking the conscript behind the screen of a drone, and they're doing it just as cleanly as an all volunteer force.

Of course, those who start wars might be a bit less willing if they did have a personal stake in it.
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On the heels of the success of the thrilling Curiosity landing, the US gov't greenlights the shipment of bipedal drones to just outside the crater. Just as the Curiosity mission is wrapping up, the final images are of 6 metallic humanoids opening fire on the tiny rover. In an emergency session of Congress, the US war chests begin filling and filling...
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Koldfoot wrote:
Air drones are merely the first drones.

Just wait. The future of drones is as big as your imagination.

I predict drones will step foot on Mars a century before man.



Depends on what you mean by "Drones".

Drones are just RC craft. Technically, there are already "drones" on Mars. Additionally, any manned mission would assuredly have many unmanned missions before to set-up for the manned mission and the return home.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
Air drones are merely the first drones.

Just wait. The future of drones is as big as your imagination.

I predict drones will step foot on Mars a century before man.

Aren't those just called robots?
 
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Venga2 wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Air drones are merely the first drones.

Just wait. The future of drones is as big as your imagination.

I predict drones will step foot on Mars a century before man.

Aren't those just called robots?


But none of those have feet.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
Air drones are merely the first drones.

Just wait. The future of drones is as big as your imagination.

I predict drones will step foot on Mars a century before man.



So manned landings by 2076? That's a bit earlier than I thought would happen, I'll admit.
 
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