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Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » General

Subject: Explain Advanced Sensors to me please. rss

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Joshua Speelman
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I'm sure it's just my inexperience with the game but I don't see the use of advanced sensors. What am I missing?

Thanks.
 
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David A.
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Here ya go:

http://www.justanothersnakecult.com/advanced-sensors/
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Adrian Sperling
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Joshua the Gamer wrote:
I'm sure it's just my inexperience with the game but I don't see the use of advanced sensors. What am I missing?

Thanks.


One of the more advanced strategies of this game is action denial - if you can place a low-PS ship where you believe a high-PS ship will be going, you can create a collision where the other player won't be able to take an action (or actions) with that ship. This generally works better against the Rebels as they have a number of synergistic builds that depend on all ships taking their actions. Advanced Sensors make a ship immune to action denial; they will just take their action before they move and not worry about the collision.

It also dramatically changes the conundrum of whether or not to take a red maneuver for better positioning, but lose out on taking an action. Now, you can do both, but the next turn must decide whether or not you can take a green maneuver to shed the stress to get back your action for the round.

edit: Gahh, link ninja'd by Mr. Anderson!
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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The linked post misses Push the Limit followed by a green manoeuvre.
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David A.
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Added it. That's a nice move!
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Matthias König
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Quote:
You are now Darth Vader.




Great combination with Push the Limit!
 
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Ralph T
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Anyone else think it is undercosted? This pushes the B-Wing into the best fighter category.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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ralpher wrote:
Anyone else think it is undercosted? This pushes the B-Wing into the best fighter category.


The cheapest B-wing with Advanced Sensors is 25 points, limiting you to 4 of them (assuming you bought enough Shuttle expansions). If you want both Advanced Sensors and Push the Limit, you're limited to 2 pilots and are looking at costs of 34+ or 37+ (e.g. more than Wedge Antilles + Push the Limit or Wedge Antilles + R2-D2; almost as much as Luke Skywalker + Push the Limit + R2-D2). And while they're heavily shielded, they're also very easy to hit (1 agility) so they do fall quickly when heavily outnumbered (e.g. to TIE Swarm) when lacking other protection (e.g. Biggs or somebody with Draw Their Fire). And aside from the nifty 2-speed K-turn, the B-wing isn't very maneuverable. Even alternating between red and green maneuvers (to keep clearing stress you might be gaining, despite getting your action each turn) leaves your maneuvers somewhat predictable. It also lacks a long K-turn, which can be annoying at times. Consider the following example: you're being closely tailed; you perform an action and reveal a 2-speed K-turn. Then your opponent performs a 4- or 5-speed K-turn and leap-frogs you... and is still tailing you. DOH!

I find that B-wings are best when accompanied by ships that can deal with their blind spots (e.g. turret support from either a YT-1300 or some Y-wing's HWK-290's; or perhaps even A-wings).

Also, what's wrong with the B-wing being (among) the best fighter(s)? Isn't that why B-wings exist?
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Ralph T
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There's nothing wrong with them being the best if they are costed properly. It does seem like these advanced sensors tilted the game towards the rebels and the imperial aces is unlikely to rectify that.
 
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Jeff Wilder

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mlvanbie wrote:
The linked post misses Push the Limit followed by a green manoeuvre.

Just don't do it with Ibtisam if you expect to use her pilot ability. Ibtisam might very well be the only counter-example to the rule, "If you're flying a B-wing, always use Advanced Sensors."
 
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Michael Van Biesbrouck
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Anything that helps keep named YT-1300s off the table makes Imperial Aces more useful. Range 3 turrets with 3 attack are a menace.
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David Pontier
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ralpher wrote:
There's nothing wrong with them being the best if they are costed properly. It does seem like these advanced sensors tilted the game towards the rebels and the imperial aces is unlikely to rectify that.


In order to fly 4 of them, you need to use the cheapest B-Wings at skill 2. With many people flying ships at skill 3 or 4 now, you will find that you are moving first and you are not crashing. In those games, you will find that you don't really need advanced sensors and you wasted 12 points of your build. They are best on skill 4 B-Wings, as they will typically not move first, but then you can at most only fly 3 of them. The skill 2 B-Wings with Adv Sensors are REALLY good against multiple skill 1 ships, which typically means an imperial swarm (or a rebel one with A-Wings), and everyone knows that Swarms have dominated tournaments for a while, so having a piece of "paper" to the swarm's "rock" is a good thing.

Edit:
One other thing worth noting is that Ion cannons are the bane of B-Wings not only because of their 1 agility, but also because the official ruling from FFG is that since when you are Ionized you do not assign a maneuver dial to your ship, and thus do not reveal a maneuver dial, there is no point in the turn where it is "Immediately before you reveal your maneuver" so you can not use Adv sensors while Ionized.
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Matthias König
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Piqsid wrote:
official ruling from FFG is that since when you are Ionized you do not assign a maneuver dial to your ship, and thus do not reveal a maneuver dial, there is no point in the turn where it is "Immediately before you reveal your maneuver" so you can not use Adv sensors while Ionized.


Wow, I have missed that. Thanks!
 
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Josh B
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TripleThr3at wrote:
Piqsid wrote:
official ruling from FFG is that since when you are Ionized you do not assign a maneuver dial to your ship, and thus do not reveal a maneuver dial, there is no point in the turn where it is "Immediately before you reveal your maneuver" so you can not use Adv sensors while Ionized.


Wow, I have missed that. Thanks!


BTW, same concept also prohibits ships from dropping bombs that need to be dropped when revealing a maneuver dial.
 
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Jeff Wilder

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Piqsid wrote:
In order to fly 4 of them, you need to use the cheapest B-Wings at skill 2. With many people flying ships at skill 3 or 4 now, you will find that you are moving first and you are not crashing.

This is only (sort of) true for the simplest and most obvious use of Advanced Sensors. Advanced Sensors are awesome in so many ways beyond, "Protect me from crashing." They are always useful, and because of the durability of B-wings, and the versatility of Advanced Sensors, a squadron of four Blues with Advanced Sensors is winnably strong against almost anything.
 
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Matthew Scott
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Short Answer -

I think the B-Wing is MAJORLY overrated and is actually a pretty mediocre, difficult to maneuver ship that deals the same damage as an X-Wing but tends to survive for fewer rounds and get off less shots while it's still in the game (in my experience).

I think the B-Wing with Advanced Sensors is hands-down one of the best ships in the game.
 
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Jeff Wilder

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scomatt9 wrote:
I think the B-Wing is MAJORLY overrated and [...] I think the B-Wing with Advanced Sensors is hands-down one of the best ships in the game.

That pretty well sums it up for me, too. I don't think it's completely accurate -- all else equal, a B-wing will survive a tiny while longer than an X-wing -- but it's close enough for Coruscant work.
 
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Ralph T
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Math shows that B-Wings can survive more attack dice than X-Wings.
 
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Bob Duclos
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ralpher wrote:
Math shows that B-Wings can survive more attack dice than X-Wings.


That works, of course, if you believe in the whole "Math" thing...
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Matthew Scott
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ralpher wrote:
Math shows that B-Wings can survive more attack dice than X-Wings.


Actually it does not because it fails to account for the reduced maneuverability of the B-Wings as well as their lack of (often very helpful) droids. So if you're comparing red dice stats vs green dice stats, you're really failing to consider the largest aspect of the game - piloting and ship maneuvering. And what is just about the only thing that you can do to B-Wings to make them more maneuverable? Advanced Sensors. Which is my point.

EDIT:
A list of other food for thought that is often neglected...
*target priority - opponents hate b-wings and will often prioritize them higher making for shorter life spans
*dice differential - x-wings will fair much better against the tie swarm because the offensive-defensive dice differential is very important in this very common circumstance
*reduced ability to take actions - those blanket stats tend to consider that opportunities for actions are equal, but in reality that isn't true. An X-Wing has the edge defensively if it can take focus every turn as opposed to a permastressed b-Wing that is stuck doing red maneuvers to try and line up shots (that short 2-K and the red 1 turn can be brutal)
*the named b-wing pilots are overpriced and have mediocre abilities (not a survivability issue...just kind of annoying...)

Always good to remember that in the world of X-Wing math, your ships sit across from each other and fire away at one another, attacking and defending with exactly the same modifiers and never moving. But in reality, b-wings can be a royal pain. Not quite as bad as I make them out to be, granted, but certainly not all they're cracked up to be by the general forum consensus (at least naked Bs that lack AS)

 
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Joshua Speelman
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Some very through and enlightening answers. I knew it was just something I was missing from not having played enough. Thanks.
 
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Robert M.
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scomatt9 wrote:
ralpher wrote:
Math shows that B-Wings can survive more attack dice than X-Wings.


Actually it does not because it fails to account for the reduced maneuverability of the B-Wings as well as their lack of (often very helpful) droids. So if you're comparing red dice stats vs green dice stats, you're really failing to consider the largest aspect of the game - piloting and ship maneuvering. And what is just about the only thing that you can do to B-Wings to make them more maneuverable? Advanced Sensors. Which is my point.


I agree with you almost entirely about the math--in a vacuum, the B-wing will survive about one more attack than the X-wing. But in order to leverage that into an actual advantage, you have to make sure that the more limited dial doesn't lose any attacks the X-wing would have gotten, and that the B-wings don't take any additional attacks. And that's a bar that depends a lot on your comfort with the dial and your skill overall.

I will say that there's something else you can do that effectively makes the B-wing more maneuverable, and that is FCS--because while it works very differently from Advanced Sensors, it gives you basically a free target lock as often as once per round. And that means you're free to use barrel roll or red maneuvers without the same consequences another ship might feel.
 
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Jeff Wilder

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Vorpal Sword wrote:
I will say that there's something else you can do that effectively makes the B-wing more maneuverable, and that is FCS
FCS-to-AdvS as Elusiveness-to-PTL. It vaguely looks good, and it's 1 point cheaper, but it's overpriced at 2 points. (Overpriced relative to the other option; whether AdvS and PTL are too good for their points is a different argument.)

Quote:
it gives you basically a free target lock as often as once per round.

In practice, it's not even close to once a round. You only get a free TL on (a) a ship that you attacked before, that (b) has not yet been destroyed. Possibly the biggest difference between novice players and non-novice players is the realization that focusing fire is vital (and, of course, the ability to implement that realization). FCS works against that very concept, and vice-versa.

Quote:
And that means you're free to use barrel roll or red maneuvers without the same consequences another ship might feel.

On those relatively rare occasions when you have a useful TL, this is true. But for 1 point more, AdvS provides so much more versatility. It's really not even close. The red maneuvers with FCS remain static and predictable; the red maneuvers (and any turns in general) with AdvS provide a degree of coverage of the board that is amazing.

FCS would be a worthy upgrade to consider for B-wings at 1 point. At 2 points, you will nearly always be better served to find the point for AdvS.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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Jeff Wilder wrote:
Vorpal Sword wrote:
I will say that there's something else you can do that effectively makes the B-wing more maneuverable, and that is FCS
FCS-to-AdvS as Elusiveness-to-PTL. It vaguely looks good, and it's 1 point cheaper, but it's overpriced at 2 points. (Overpriced relative to the other option; whether AdvS and PTL are too good for their points is a different argument.)

Quote:
it gives you basically a free target lock as often as once per round.

In practice, it's not even close to once a round. You only get a free TL on (a) a ship that you attacked before, that (b) has not yet been destroyed. Possibly the biggest difference between novice players and non-novice players is the realization that focusing fire is vital (and, of course, the ability to implement that realization). FCS works against that very concept, and vice-versa.


The only case where I've found FCS to be (approximatley) as good is against a Falcon (or two), since the Falcon is unlikely to drop in 1 round of focused fire, and it probably isn't trying very hard to outmaneuver you (e.g. it isn't difficult to get another shot at the same target). In that case, it's like a Push the Limit that doesn't induce stress and can be used on a generic B-wing.

It would be useful against hard-to-hit targets like Soontir Fel if it wasn't so easy to get outmaneuvered by such a pilot. (Fel runs circles around generic B-wings)
 
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David Pontier
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Vorpal Sword wrote:
scomatt9 wrote:
ralpher wrote:
Math shows that B-Wings can survive more attack dice than X-Wings.


Actually it does not because it fails to account for the reduced maneuverability of the B-Wings as well as their lack of (often very helpful) droids. So if you're comparing red dice stats vs green dice stats, you're really failing to consider the largest aspect of the game - piloting and ship maneuvering. And what is just about the only thing that you can do to B-Wings to make them more maneuverable? Advanced Sensors. Which is my point.


I agree with you almost entirely about the math--in a vacuum, the B-wing will survive about one more attack than the X-wing. But in order to leverage that into an actual advantage, you have to make sure that the more limited dial doesn't lose any attacks the X-wing would have gotten, and that the B-wings don't take any additional attacks. And that's a bar that depends a lot on your comfort with the dial and your skill overall.


Just to add some numbers to this discussion:
Against 3 attack dice with focus B-Wings should require 4.17 attacks to die and X-Wings should require 3.19 attacks to die. So B-Wings survive a turn longer. Again, this is in a vacuum with naked defense dice. And focus tokens benefit an X-Wing on defense more than they do a B-Wing.

Against 2 attack dice with Focus, the B-Wing requires 6.93 attacks to kill and the X-Wing requires 6.28. This narrows the gap so that the B-Wing is now only a little more than half an attack more survivable.
 
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