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Subject: Humalien Playtesting rss

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Hi everyone, here is the Humaliens playtesting thread. We can use this thread to track the status of playtesting for Humaliens as well as what we should aim to playtest.

So, here is the state of the playtesting for each of the humalien characters. There are all still in the first phase of testing before we do mass final playtesting.


DOPPELGANGER

Status: Halfway done (1st phase)

Important Things to playtest
New Ability: Mimic attributes
-Is the lack of a chance of failure to mimic too powerful against high defense characters?
-Should Doppelganger be allowed to use this on enemies?
-Should there be Mimic attributes 2: Move and use Mimic attributes?

New Ability: Mimic abilities
-Is the lack of a chance of failure to mimic too powerful against high defense characters?
New stats

New Stats
-Are the statistics average enough so that mimic attributes is useful?

Mimic abilities as a whole
Is doppelgänger worth it since he is so dependent on others. Is it worth choosing?

Things to check
Mimic Defense
-Is it too powerful?


INDESTRUCTIBLE

Status: Completed (1st phase)

Things to check
-Is WR okay?
-Is defence too high?


RAIDER

Status: Halfway done (1st phase)

Important Things to playtest
Quantum shift
-Does it work in general?
-Does the LOS limit mov to much?
-Is attacking and teleporting away (or vice versa) too powerful?

Quantum assault
-Is the attack too powerful?

Things to check
- Is his cc okay?
- Is his defence okay?


TIMEHUNTER

Status: Almost complete (1st phase)

Things to Check
-Is Timewave effective in healing? Is it too hard to heal the indestructible?

New Entrap ability
-Whether defense of token should be 6 or 7
-Whether it is under or over-powered

Changes in RC
-Is it too hard to get a success for timewave and entrap at veteran?


TIMEKEEPER

Status: Almost done (1st phase)

Things to playtest
New ability:‘Timewarp’
-Is the extra attack too over powered?

Things to Check
-Is Premonition too powerful a defence ability at veteran and elite? Should it be lowered to 8-10 to negate a damage?
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David Thompson
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Great summary, Paul.

Lots of stuff to think about here, but one (easy) issue I noticed is:

RAIDER:
-Is Timecraft too much a bother?


This is an interesting point. It made a lot more sense in the original fluff. Not so much now. I wonder if we couldn't come up with an alternative ability?...

 
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Paul, can you do me a HUGE favor (I know you've done this in the past, and it really helps me out).

Can you go through the different Humalien playtest threads and provide a consolidated, single entry with all the most current, updated info for each character (stats and ability descriptions)? You don't have to do them all at one time. One by one is fine. Start with the character you feel is closest to playtest ready. I'll then take that and turn it into a character card (if it's ready). If it's not ready, it can serve as a jumping off point for conversations and debates about their continued development.

Thanks!
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Skirmish_Tactics wrote:
Paul, can you do me a HUGE favor (I know you've done this in the past, and it really helps me out).

Can you go through the different Humalien playtest threads and provide a consolidated, single entry with all the most current, updated info for each character (stats and ability descriptions)? You don't have to do them all at one time. One by one is fine. Start with the character you feel is closest to playtest ready. I'll then take that and turn it into a character card (if it's ready). If it's not ready, it can serve as a jumping off point for conversations and debates about their continued development.

Thanks!


In fact, i've sort of done that in the hum alien general threads. The stats are updated, and the ability descriptions are more or less updated. should i post it here?
 
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Skirmish_Tactics wrote:
Great summary, Paul.

Lots of stuff to think about here, but one (easy) issue I noticed is:

RAIDER:
-Is Timecraft too much a bother?


This is an interesting point. It made a lot more sense in the original fluff. Not so much now. I wonder if we couldn't come up with an alternative ability?...



Honestly, I wasn't thinking about that when i wrote it down, but that's an important thing to think about. I'm not sure if it fits into the fluff, but if it doesn't we really should come up with an alternative ability. But, should it be negative or positive?
 
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Comarauthen wrote:
Skirmish_Tactics wrote:
Paul, can you do me a HUGE favor (I know you've done this in the past, and it really helps me out).

Can you go through the different Humalien playtest threads and provide a consolidated, single entry with all the most current, updated info for each character (stats and ability descriptions)? You don't have to do them all at one time. One by one is fine. Start with the character you feel is closest to playtest ready. I'll then take that and turn it into a character card (if it's ready). If it's not ready, it can serve as a jumping off point for conversations and debates about their continued development.

Thanks!


In fact, I've sort of done that in the hum alien general threads. The stats are updated, and the ability descriptions are more or less updated. should i post it here?


I think it would be nice if the first entry in the individual character threads were updated to reflect all the newest changes (both in attributes and ability descriptions). It would also be nice if we had a single thread that had nothing but the current versions of each character. No playtest notes, discussions, etc - just a place to go to grab the latest versions for playtesteting. Think of it as a surrogate for the faction guide.

How does that sound?
 
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Comarauthen wrote:
Skirmish_Tactics wrote:
Great summary, Paul.

Lots of stuff to think about here, but one (easy) issue I noticed is:

RAIDER:
-Is Timecraft too much a bother?


This is an interesting point. It made a lot more sense in the original fluff. Not so much now. I wonder if we couldn't come up with an alternative ability?...



Honestly, I wasn't thinking about that when i wrote it down, but that's an important thing to think about. I'm not sure if it fits into the fluff, but if it doesn't we really should come up with an alternative ability. But, should it be negative or positive?


I think maybe just remove the ability altogether for now. Then when we get farther along with playtesting all the Humaliens we can come back to it.
 
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Skirmish_Tactics wrote:


I think it would be nice if the first entry in the individual character threads were updated to reflect all the newest changes (both in attributes and ability descriptions). It would also be nice if we had a single thread that had nothing but the current versions of each character. No playtest notes, discussions, etc - just a place to go to grab the latest versions for playtesteting. Think of it as a surrogate for the faction guide.

How does that sound?


I intended to update the first entry, but u created the thread so I can't edit it. For the thread, I will post it soon, after I collate the stuff.
 
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Skirmish_Tactics wrote:
Comarauthen wrote:
Skirmish_Tactics wrote:
Great summary, Paul.

Lots of stuff to think about here, but one (easy) issue I noticed is:

RAIDER:
-Is Timecraft too much a bother?


This is an interesting point. It made a lot more sense in the original fluff. Not so much now. I wonder if we couldn't come up with an alternative ability?...



Honestly, I wasn't thinking about that when i wrote it down, but that's an important thing to think about. I'm not sure if it fits into the fluff, but if it doesn't we really should come up with an alternative ability. But, should it be negative or positive?


I think maybe just remove the ability altogether for now. Then when we get farther along with playtesting all the Humaliens we can come back to it.


Actually, that's not going to work, because the use and cost of Sneak Attack is so tied to Timecraft. Maybe we should give him Hover (but rename it) and let him use it in combination with Sneak Attack. The only issue I see with this is that with Sneak Attack 2 + Hover, he could Move - Shoot - Move, dodging back and forth around Blocking/Elevated Terrain, which is ridiculously powerful. The ability would essentially be a better version of the Marauder's Inspire-Sneak Attack combo between the Rebel Leader and Scout but with a single action. So if we went this route the Raider would need to be nerfed or crazy expensive.

...it also sort of takes away some of the uniqueness of the Raider. I was thinking about a different Move ability that might better reflect his fluff. Perhaps a "Phase Shift"/Teleport type ability like this:

Phase Shift / Teleport (whatever): This character use an action to move to any square within Weapon Range and in Line of Sight.

This would allow the Raider to move through any terrain (like Hover) except that he could move long distances over/around Blocking or Elevated. This might be interesting because terrain would play a big role in the character's utility.

I'm not sure how we'd let it interact with Sneak Attack (if at all). What are your thoughts in general?
 
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Skirmish_Tactics wrote:


Actually, that's not going to work, because the use and cost of Sneak Attack is so tied to Timecraft. Maybe we should give him Hover (but rename it) and let him use it in combination with Sneak Attack. The only issue I see with this is that with Sneak Attack 2 + Hover, he could Move - Shoot - Move, dodging back and forth around Blocking/Elevated Terrain, which is ridiculously powerful. The ability would essentially be a better version of the Marauder's Inspire-Sneak Attack combo between the Rebel Leader and Scout but with a single action. So if we went this route the Raider would need to be nerfed or crazy expensive.

...it also sort of takes away some of the uniqueness of the Raider. I was thinking about a different Move ability that might better reflect his fluff. Perhaps a "Phase Shift"/Teleport type ability like this:

Phase Shift / Teleport (whatever): This character use an action to move to any square within Weapon Range and in Line of Sight.

This would allow the Raider to move through any terrain (like Hover) except that he could move long distances over/around Blocking or Elevated. This might be interesting because terrain would play a big role in the character's utility.

I'm not sure how we'd let it interact with Sneak Attack (if at all). What are your thoughts in general?


For me, I don’t really like the Hover idea, because its not that unique and would make raider too expensive.

As for the Phase shift thing, I actually had such an ability in the expansion abilities that I have . I really like the idea, it fits into the fluff and its cool. One thing that Joshua and I are worried about is that we intended for Raider to have a super high movement but hard to maneuverer. I’m still okay for trying out this ability, but I’m not too sure whether Joshua would want it since he conceptualized raider. I will check with him on this.

Anyway, if we use this, there are some things we will need to consider. Using this description would only allow the raider to move 4,5,5 squares max because of his low WR. So, maybe we could say raider gets extra range just for this ability, or increase his WR. For sneak attack, if we were to incorporate this into raider, it could potentially be overpowered. I am just brainstorming here, but maybe we could let raider have his normal sneak attack with just his normal movement. However, he can use his phase shift to sneak attack, but he can only do a basic ambush. That might be better, but calculating the cost will be a trouble.

Alternatively, I know this is really very crazy, but we could use this ability for a separate character altogether. Humalien has few melee characters, so maybe some teleporting charging guy could potentially be cool. I don’t think you guys will like this idea but I just wanted to point out what I thought we could do.

For raider, Joshua suggests that we can also consider leaving it as it is and tweaking the fluff (if possible) to suit its needs.

So, these are my thoughts in general for raider. Its all over the place and there are some really crazy ideas but they may be useful
 
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Which would you rather do? Tweak the fluff to fit the current ability or work with the new "phase shift" ability?

If we go with the Phase Shift ability, this is what I suggest:

- We lower the Raider's move, and increase his WR. Maybe he's something like:

Move: 5, 5, 6
WR: 5, 6, 6

He could have Ambush + Phase Shift at Recruit.

At Veteran, he could get Ambush + the ability to make a CC then Phase Shift (with no free CC attack) or Phase Shift and make a CC attack.

At Elite he could get Ambush + the Vet version of Phase Shift plus the ability to make an RC attack (before or after the shift).

He'd be a pretty expensive character (more than Scout, who would be the most similar character), so we'd need to keep that in mind.

If you really want to keep Sneak Attack (move, make an RC attack, move) we'll need to think this through, because that's a VERY powerful ability.
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Skirmish_Tactics wrote:
Which would you rather do? Tweak the fluff to fit the current ability or work with the new "phase shift" ability?

If we go with the Phase Shift ability, this is what I suggest:

- We lower the Raider's move, and increase his WR. Maybe he's something like:

Move: 5, 5, 6
WR: 5, 6, 6

He could have Ambush + Phase Shift at Recruit.

At Veteran, he could get Ambush + the ability to make a CC then Phase Shift (with no free CC attack) or Phase Shift and make a CC attack.

At Elite he could get Ambush + the Vet version of Phase Shift plus the ability to make an RC attack (before or after the shift).

He'd be a pretty expensive character (more than Scout, who would be the most similar character), so we'd need to keep that in mind.

If you really want to keep Sneak Attack (move, make an RC attack, move) we'll need to think this through, because that's a VERY powerful ability.


Good ideas there, we can try this idea because the high speed of the old raider might be too op for some scenarios. E.g. rush to the gear. Joshua says he is fine with the changes as long as it isn't too complicated, so i guess its a yes

For veteran raider, do you mean CC then phase shift or was it a typo? If you meant CC, what i'm worried about is that all his stats will be relatively high, making him a little too expensive. I think maybe just rc or cc will be better (even though i like a phase shifting melee guy ) One other thing to take note, at veteran and elite, there is almost no reason to use ambush. Raider's weapon range is higher and there's all the benefits of phase shift. So, its better to use phase shift.

Given all these abilities, i think we can take out sneak attack 2. Its awesome but the new changes would make it too expensive.

I'm not too sure how you would be able to work it out with my suggestions, but i think such changes are important.

On a separate note, we have realised from our play testing that its quite hard to choose characters for small games. The high costs makes it very hard not to waste points. So, we think that we should try to lower hum aliens cost as much as possible while retaining the ability's power, making sure that it is still balanced.
 
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Comarauthen wrote:
Good ideas there, we can try this idea because the high speed of the old raider might be too op for some scenarios. E.g. rush to the gear. Joshua says he is fine with the changes as long as it isn't too complicated, so i guess its a yes

For veteran raider, do you mean CC then phase shift or was it a typo? If you meant CC, what i'm worried about is that all his stats will be relatively high, making him a little too expensive. I think maybe just rc or cc will be better (even though i like a phase shifting melee guy )


Yea, I specifically meant CC + phase shift or phase shift + CC. It's just like Ambush except he has to use phase shift.

Comarauthen wrote:
One other thing to take note, at veteran and elite, there is almost no reason to use ambush. Raider's weapon range is higher and there's all the benefits of phase shift. So, its better to use phase shift.


That's not really true, but I think it may be a good idea just to get rid of Ambush. The reason I say it's not really true is because to use Phase Shift, you have to have line of sight to the destination square. That means you can't be hiding behind a wall and use it to run around the wall to a square you didn't have line of sight to and make an attack.

Comarauthen wrote:
Given all these abilities, i think we can take out sneak attack 2. Its awesome but the new changes would make it too expensive.

I'm not too sure how you would be able to work it out with my suggestions, but i think such changes are important.


I tend to agree. I'm not sure we need Sneak Attack 2. I do feel that Ambush and Sneak Attack are a bit redundant, though (as discussed earlier).

Comarauthen wrote:
On a separate note, we have realized from our play testing that its quite hard to choose characters for small games. The high costs makes it very hard not to waste points. So, we think that we should try to lower hum aliens cost as much as possible while retaining the ability's power, making sure that it is still balanced.


Yep - that's always an issue. Don't worry about it for now. For test purposes, come up with the amount of points you want to use for the Humaliens and just match that with the points for the opponents. When we've completely developed the abilities, we can go back and tweak the attributes if need be to adjust cost.

So here's a summary on my thoughts for Raider's abilities:

Recruit: Phase Shift
Veteran/Elite: Phase Shift plus attack (CC or RC)

The only thing we might want to consider is that if we remove Ambush, we could make Phase Shift based on Move rather than WR. Also, Phase Shift essentially becomes a similar, but weaker, version of Phasing (the Psi-Blade's ability). That's something to consider - but not necessarily a bad thing. The names are probably too similar to call this ability Phase Shift, though.
 
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What do you think about my suggestions above, Paul? If you're ok with them (or if you want to tweak some of them), we should be very close to a complete set of playtest designs for Humaliens, right?
 
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Skirmish_Tactics wrote:
Comarauthen wrote:
Good ideas there, we can try this idea because the high speed of the old raider might be too op for some scenarios. E.g. rush to the gear. Joshua says he is fine with the changes as long as it isn't too complicated, so i guess its a yes

For veteran raider, do you mean CC then phase shift or was it a typo? If you meant CC, what i'm worried about is that all his stats will be relatively high, making him a little too expensive. I think maybe just rc or cc will be better (even though i like a phase shifting melee guy )


Yea, I specifically meant CC + phase shift or phase shift + CC. It's just like Ambush except he has to use phase shift.

Comarauthen wrote:
One other thing to take note, at veteran and elite, there is almost no reason to use ambush. Raider's weapon range is higher and there's all the benefits of phase shift. So, its better to use phase shift.


That's not really true, but I think it may be a good idea just to get rid of Ambush. The reason I say it's not really true is because to use Phase Shift, you have to have line of sight to the destination square. That means you can't be hiding behind a wall and use it to run around the wall to a square you didn't have line of sight to and make an attack.


Agreed. Having two similar abilities will really increase his cost too much and we don't want that.

Quote:

Comarauthen wrote:
Given all these abilities, i think we can take out sneak attack 2. Its awesome but the new changes would make it too expensive.

I'm not too sure how you would be able to work it out with my suggestions, but i think such changes are important.


I tend to agree. I'm not sure we need Sneak Attack 2. I do feel that Ambush and Sneak Attack are a bit redundant, though (as discussed earlier).


Yes. Sneak attack 2 with too little movement would be too hard to use too.

Quote:

Comarauthen wrote:
On a separate note, we have realized from our play testing that its quite hard to choose characters for small games. The high costs makes it very hard not to waste points. So, we think that we should try to lower hum aliens cost as much as possible while retaining the ability's power, making sure that it is still balanced.


Yep - that's always an issue. Don't worry about it for now. For test purposes, come up with the amount of points you want to use for the Humaliens and just match that with the points for the opponents. When we've completely developed the abilities, we can go back and tweak the attributes if need be to adjust cost.


Okay. Got that

Quote:
So here's a summary on my thoughts for Raider's abilities:

Recruit: Phase Shift
Veteran/Elite: Phase Shift plus attack (CC or RC)

The only thing we might want to consider is that if we remove Ambush, we could make Phase Shift based on Move rather than WR. Also, Phase Shift essentially becomes a similar, but weaker, version of Phasing (the Psi-Blade's ability). That's something to consider - but not necessarily a bad thing. The names are probably too similar to call this ability Phase Shift, though.


For me, i feel that he could also have phase shift and attack at recruit. If not, it will be somewhat like the very early nether tech with no ambush at recruit, which is a little weird, like he lost his main ability.

Regarding which attack to use, i think both have their strengths. While Rc would make use of its WR, it may be too high for an ambushing character. CC can be good because it will even out the RC of hum alien, making it a bit more balanced rc and cc faction. Honestly, i'm fine with either but i prefer CC a little more. He can like teleport to and fro from each character, which is something like trample. Also, he has an ability that no one ever has: Moving past enemy characters. That is more useful for CC then for RC as it can penetrate SoL groups and attack the more vulnerable characters, so i'm more for CC.

Quote:

What do you think about my suggestions above, Paul? If you're ok with them (or if you want to tweak some of them), we should be very close to a complete set of playtest designs for Humaliens, right?


I think we are almost done for hum alien. Indestructible is totally ready, time hunter and timekeeper seems good from my play tests (in the middle of writing an awesome play test that we did). Raider is almost ready too and doppelgänger doesn't seem to have much of an issue.

However, we are only halfway through this project as we still have deep ones. I think we should also spend time working on deep ones so that we can have the alpha play test version ready for testing
 
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Comarauthen wrote:
However, we are only halfway through this project as we still have deep ones. I think we should also spend time working on deep ones so that we can have the alpha play test version ready for testing


Awesome! Can't wait to see how they test out.
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So our brainstorm on the Raider resulted in some MAJOR changes. Here is a proposal based on the stuff we discussed.

Quantum Shift: This character can use an action to move to any square within Move and in Line of Sight. This character can withdraw from enemy characters without granting enemy characters free Close Combat attacks.

Quantum Assault: This character can make a Close Combat attack and then move to any square within Move and in Line of Sight, or this character can move to any square within Move and in Line of Sight and then make a Close Combat attack action. This character can withdraw from enemy characters without granting enemy characters free Close Combat attacks.



If we decide to go with this for the playtest, it means we either need to think of additional abilities or the Raider would represent a fairly cheap (relatively speaking) character for the Humaliens. As an aside, I'm not sure "Raider" really fits this concept now, so we might want to brainstorm a different name.
 
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We can add the specific text for the abilities later, but here are the current character cards for each character. I think all of these are correct - there could be an error or two.







 
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Once Paul (and Clarence, Joshua, Zhi Yi and the rest of the Singapore group) blesses these Humalien proposals, we will consider them ready for the playtest.

Then we'll move on to developing the Deep Ones, while also playtesting the Humaliens.
 
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In my opinion, timekeeper, time hunter and indestructible are ready to go. Doppelgänger and raider still need some play testing.

Just checking, why is timekeeper's cc 1,1,2? Shouldn't it be 2,2,2 or 1,2,3?
 
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Skirmish_Tactics wrote:
So our brainstorm on the Raider resulted in some MAJOR changes. Here is a proposal based on the stuff we discussed.

Quantum Shift: This character can use an action to move to any square within Move and in Line of Sight. This character can withdraw from enemy characters without granting enemy characters free Close Combat attacks.

Quantum Assault: This character can make a Close Combat attack and then move to any square within Move and in Line of Sight, or this character can move to any square within Move and in Line of Sight and then make a Close Combat attack action. This character can withdraw from enemy characters without granting enemy characters free Close Combat attacks.



If we decide to go with this for the playtest, it means we either need to think of additional abilities or the Raider would represent a fairly cheap (relatively speaking) character for the Humaliens. As an aside, I'm not sure "Raider" really fits this concept now, so we might want to brainstorm a different name.


I really love the pic. It looks VERY awesome!!!

For raider, i think maybe we could just go with the way he is; no extra abilities unless he's too weak. For recruit raider, he somehow seems weak. Unlike similar cc guys, he only has 2 cc, and cannot 'charge'. Comparing him to psi-blade, psi-blade has a more powerful movement ability, psi-blade and a higher cc. So, maybe, he could have quantum assault at recruit, or have 3 cc. Maybe, he could have one less defence because of this? Just some possible ideas, but lets just use this for play tests sake.
 
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Comarauthen wrote:


I really love the pic. It looks VERY awesome!!!

For raider, i think maybe we could just go with the way he is; no extra abilities unless he's too weak. For recruit raider, he somehow seems weak. Unlike similar cc guys, he only has 2 cc, and cannot 'charge'. Comparing him to psi-blade, psi-blade has a more powerful movement ability, psi-blade and a higher cc. So, maybe, he could have quantum assault at recruit, or have 3 cc. Maybe, he could have one less defence because of this? Just some possible ideas, but lets just use this for play tests sake.


I agree about the art. I think this is a good look for the Raider, though maybe with a more dynamic pose?

We can certainly give him Quantum Assault at Recruit. It would boost his cost, but that's ok. The only concern I'd have is that he didn't feel different enough as he leveled up. A 4 Defense for a melee combatant is pretty low.

Maybe we could reintroduce "Sneak Attack 2", since the Raider's movement and movement ability has been reduced?

Perhaps his abilities could be Quantum Shift (the current version of Quantum Assault) and then advance to Quantum Assault (which would be Move - Attack - Move). The total movement would be limited to the Raider's movement (so 5 or 6) and he would have to have LoS to the destination square before the attack.
 
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Skirmish_Tactics wrote:

I agree about the art. I think this is a good look for the Raider, though maybe with a more dynamic pose?

We can certainly give him Quantum Assault at Recruit. It would boost his cost, but that's ok. The only concern I'd have is that he didn't feel different enough as he leveled up. A 4 Defense for a melee combatant is pretty low.

Maybe we could reintroduce "Sneak Attack 2", since the Raider's movement and movement ability has been reduced?

Perhaps his abilities could be Quantum Shift (the current version of Quantum Assault) and then advance to Quantum Assault (which would be Move - Attack - Move). The total movement would be limited to the Raider's movement (so 5 or 6) and he would have to have LoS to the destination square before the attack.


I like the idea of the new quantum shift and quantum assault. It should be cheaper than the past sneak attack 2 too because it's cc and not RC. Also, I assume that the mov in the ability description of quantum shift is like WR. This is because the ability description makes it seem like just movement and must be in LOS. I think the new quantum assault should be available at veteran.
 
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Revised version of the Raider:



Quantum Shift: Move/CC Attack or CC Attack/Move. Can move to any square within the character's Move attribute as long as the character has LoS (no penalty for Water or Difficult Terrain). MUST use the movement feature...in other words, the character can't just move around a wall and make a CC attack.

Quantum Assault: Same as shift except move/CC attack/move (up to Move attribute).

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Skirmish_Tactics wrote:
Revised version of the Raider:



Quantum Shift: Move/CC Attack or CC Attack/Move. Can move to any square within the character's Move attribute as long as the character has LoS (no penalty for Water or Difficult Terrain). MUST use the movement feature...in other words, the character can't just move around a wall and make a CC attack.

Quantum Assault: Same as shift except move/CC attack/move (up to Move attribute).



Look's great! Just a little worried about how to word the ability description for quantum shift. Is it okay if we make his mov 0 and make his wr 5,5,6 and say that he uses his wr to teleport. That may make it easier to write for the description, but may seem very weird. What do you think?

On a side note, i edited the top of this thread so that any other play testers (if any) can possibly think about these questions when play testing and focus on them.
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