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Subject: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown? [Answered by Lukas] rss

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Jason Hamner
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This seems an obvious thing to me, but it came up on reddit with several people disagreeing with my position... so I guess it's not so obvious and deserves a post and discussion here.

The rules on page 18 state:
Quote:
Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost in order to trash it to Archives faceup.

However, the bone of contention is that the runner isn't accessing cards. So what do we do? Rezzed cards that are trashed go into archives faceup and urezzed cards go facedown. Noise's ability sends cards to archives facedown... is it because they are unrezzed? And thus Keyhole would send the card in facedown for the same reason? Or does the fact that you are looking at the card you trash with Keyhole count as "functionally" rezzed in some manner?

I think the card should go faceup since the runner is trashing a card he is currently looking at... despite the lack of access... but what say you? Any relevant rulings that I am unaware of that would shed light on this?

EDIT:

Lukas just got back to me with a response, stating that cards the runner trashes go into archives faceup.

Quote:
Jason,

Good question. The general rule is that if the Runner does the trashing, the cards are trashed faceup. So they should go to the Archives faceup. Hope that helps,

--
Lukas Litzsinger
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JPG
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?

Why is this a concern?

The runner knows what the card is and the corp can look at archives anytime. Both players should know what the card is.

However, I say it goes face down as the card was not rezzed.
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Colin Thomas
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
It could matter if the runner is running Record Reconstructor. Also, I was running a Keyhole deck against an NBN Midseasons tag flood deck and had to keep in my head how many agenda points were in Archives b/c I wanted to grab them all on the same turn (to avoid the inevitable Midseasons).
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Jason Hamner
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Quote:
Why is this a concern?

The runner knows what the card is and the corp can look at archives anytime. Both players should know what the card is.

It would matter for Jackson Howard, Interns, Archived Memories, etc. since otherwise the Corp would only have to show me that it's a facedown card going wherever it's going.
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Colin Thomas
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
I would also say that cards trashed by keyhole go in facedown as they were specifically not accessed.
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Jason Hamner
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
paedia wrote:
I would also say that cards trashed by keyhole go in facedown as they were specifically not accessed.

But we have the runner trashing a card to archives versus Noise's ability which states that the Corp trashes the card. The runner trashing a card s/he is currently looking at seems more relevant to me than the lack of access.
 
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Chris Wood
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Why not send the question in to Lukas? Then you get an official answer, and if it's a common question can be put on the FAQ

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_faq.asp
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Jason Hamner
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Taloncarde wrote:
Why not send the question in to Lukas? Then you get an official answer, and if it's a common question can be put on the FAQ

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_faq.asp

Okay, I submitted the question and will post the answer here whenever it gets addressed.
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Edward K.
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
If I ran RnD and saw a MMC and trashed it for 1, using credits (so nothing fancy), how is it placed in Archives? It would be placed face up.

However, the concern of "not being accessed" might throw this off, but I would still say it is face up.

My line of argument would be, this works the same as Imp or Demo Run except I don't access the cards so I can dodge any nasty abilities like Snare! or Fetal AI. Also, if it was worded Access you would have to pick which one is trashed before you can see all 3 cards (if you trash Card 1 or 2).

Keyhole was designed, in my opinion, as a new way to mill the corp and dodge any traps while doing so. Key hole may be slow but it is safer than RDI + Demo Run, for example.
 
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Jason Hamner
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
I suspect they key here is Corp trashing versus Runner trashing. The Rez/Unrezzed distinction only matters when the Corp trashes a card, and when the Runner trashes a card it is always faceup. Unfortunately there is currently no language in the rules that says that AFAIK.
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Greg Nordeng
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost in order to trash it to Archives faceup.

I would focus on the part in bold to answer this question. The first statement says HOW to trash cards with trash cost, the second part says WHAT to do with trashed cards, which is place them face up in archives.

My guess is Lukas will say Keyhole keeps the trashed card face up.
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Colin Thomas
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Nords3x4 wrote:
Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost in order to trash it to Archives faceup.

I would focus on the part in bold to answer this question. The first statement says HOW to trash cards with trash cost, the second part says WHAT to do with trashed cards, which is place them face up in archives.

My guess is Lukas will say Keyhole keeps the trashed card face up.

You ignore a key part of the statement:

Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost [i]in order to trash it to Archives faceup.
 
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Greg Nordeng
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
paedia wrote:
Nords3x4 wrote:
Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost in order to trash it to Archives faceup.

I would focus on the part in bold to answer this question. The first statement says HOW to trash cards with trash cost, the second part says WHAT to do with trashed cards, which is place them face up in archives.

My guess is Lukas will say Keyhole keeps the trashed card face up.

You ignore a key part of the statement:

Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost [i]in order to trash it to Archives faceup.

Correct, ignore it because it does not apply. Common sense does however, face down archives are for cards that are unrezzed or unseen by the runner. I will let Lukas have the final word, my opinion is noted.
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Andrew Keddie
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Nords3x4 wrote:
paedia wrote:
Nords3x4 wrote:
Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost in order to trash it to Archives faceup.

I would focus on the part in bold to answer this question. The first statement says HOW to trash cards with trash cost, the second part says WHAT to do with trashed cards, which is place them face up in archives.

My guess is Lukas will say Keyhole keeps the trashed card face up.

You ignore a key part of the statement:

Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost [i]in order to trash it to Archives faceup.

Correct, ignore it because it does not apply.

Based on what? I would say it very much does apply. The card is not being accessed, so the rest of the sentence (which pertains to cards being accessed) shouldn't apply to this situation. Definitely needs a ruling though.
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Louis Schiffer
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Nords3x4 wrote:
paedia wrote:
Nords3x4 wrote:
Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost in order to trash it to Archives faceup.

I would focus on the part in bold to answer this question. The first statement says HOW to trash cards with trash cost, the second part says WHAT to do with trashed cards, which is place them face up in archives.

My guess is Lukas will say Keyhole keeps the trashed card face up.

You ignore a key part of the statement:

Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost [i]in order to trash it to Archives faceup.

Correct, ignore it because it does not apply.

Except thats impossible. The trashing face up part is dependent on the if clause.

What we can say, is that this entire sentence does not apply to keyhole. It is not fulfilling the condition (accessing) therefore the effect (trashing face up) cannot apply.

Doesn't mean that it won't end up being put face up, just that this sentence will have nothing to do with it.
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Edward K.
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
I don't recall what it was for, but it goes something along the lines of:

Cards that are known on both sides (runner and corp) it is trashed face up, because both parties KNOW what the card was when it was placed in the Archives.

This is why, a card trashed by the runner via trash cost, Imp, or Demo Run it is placed face up. The runner knows what the card is, selects it, and trashes it through some action.

However, when Noise mills a card it is face down. This is because when the virus is installed the card is trashed, the runner has not seen the card at the time of trashing so it is not known what the card is on both sides (it's only known by the corp). This wording makes it so, say Noise runs RnD and sees its an Eve Campaign but doesn't have the money to trash it. He installs a Data Sucker, now the top card goes in the Archives. Noise knows it's an Eve but because he isn't trashing it when he saw it, it goes face down.

So, because the runner sees the card, selects the card, knows what the card is: the card is placed face up in the Archives.
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Zak Jarvis
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
paedia wrote:
Nords3x4 wrote:
Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost in order to trash it to Archives faceup.

I would focus on the part in bold to answer this question. The first statement says HOW to trash cards with trash cost, the second part says WHAT to do with trashed cards, which is place them face up in archives.

My guess is Lukas will say Keyhole keeps the trashed card face up.

You ignore a key part of the statement:

Trashing Cards
If the Runner accesses a card with a trash cost, he may pay credits equal to its trash cost [i]in order to trash it to Archives faceup.

By the same logic you would have to assume "he may pay credits" as an equally key part of the statement to declare that cards trashed with Imp should also go facedown.
 
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Greg Nordeng
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Youre reading too much into what I said. We already know you're not the accessing the cards, therefore that first statement does not apply by default. The second statement gives us an indicator of what to do with a trashed card when the runner trashes it.

Im 99% sure that the ruling will be face up, and I deduce it exclusively from the rule you quoted.

Just applying common sense.

Thats all.

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Ben Finkel
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Look at Noise:

"Whenever you install a virus program, the Corp trashes the top card of R&D."

Compare with Keyhole:

"Make a run on R&D. If successful, instead of accessing cards, look at the top 3 cards of R&D. Trash 1 of those cards at no cost (even if it cannot normally be trashed) and the Corp shuffles R&D."

For Noise, it's the Corp who trashes the card, and it's an unrezzed, non-played-operation card, so it goes face down. For Keyhole, the Runner is the one who trashes the cards, so I strongly expect they will go face up. This will also be the case for Singularity, if I'm not wrong.
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
popeye09 wrote:

By the same logic you would have to assume "he may pay credits" as an equally key part of the statement to declare that cards trashed with Imp should also go facedown.

Not necessarily. You could see Imp as changing the trash cost when accessing a card to "remove a virus counter from Imp" (and also to allow the trashing of cards that normally do not have trash costs). This can be understood as the case since Imp works on cards you're accessing and could potentially trash as you normally would while accessing - it's just letting you do it with a different cost and thus bypasses the lack of cost inherent in trash-cost-less-cards.

On the other hand, Keyhole replaces the entire access with its own effect, but it doesn't tell you whether the cards are face up or face down. Typically, a card that's face down (ie in the Corp's deck) is considered face down no matter who is looking at it or whether or not it has been revealed - if you use Lady with the Red Dress to see a card on R&D and then use Noise's ability to make the corp trash that card, it's trashed face-down even though you know what it is. And then the Corp can use Jackson to bring back cards from Archives and Noise wouldn't know if it was that card or other face-down cards that were shuffled back.

A simple rule clarification of "All cards the runner trashes to archives are trashed face-up. All cards the corp trashes to archives are face-up if they were rezzed or played Operations, and face-down otherwise." would solve this nicely. As it is, there's nothing in the rules that directly says that Keyhole's card is trashed face-up or face-down.
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Louis Schiffer
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Azeltir wrote:
This will also be the case for Singularity, if I'm not wrong.

I don't know. With Singularity, there isn't any indication that you even see the cards, since you don't access. You run. The run is successful, everything is trashed sight-unseen.

At least with keyhole it at least has the runner LOOK at the cards so they could know what they are
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
I believe Lukas' rule of thumb, at least when I played him, was if the runner knows what the card is when it goes into archives then it is face up. This would mean that since you saw and chose the card to trash via Keyhole, the card would be placed in Archives faceup.

This also applies to Demolition Run & Imp.
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Glamdryn wrote:
I believe Lukas' rule of thumb, at least when I played him, was if the runner knows what the card is when it goes into archives then it is face up.

If I expose an unrezzed ICE and then you trash it later, it gets trashed face down even though I know what it is.
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Seth Stewart
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
DrTall wrote:
Glamdryn wrote:
I believe Lukas' rule of thumb, at least when I played him, was if the runner knows what the card is when it goes into archives then it is face up.

If I expose an unrezzed ICE and then you trash it later, it gets trashed face down even though I know what it is.

I agree, I said when it goes into archives... So in other words, if the action causes a card to be trashed and you know what that card is from that action, then it goes faceup.
 
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Re: Keyhole: Trash Faceup or Facedown?
Any update?
 
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