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Subject: "Vetoed" cards rss

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Bill H
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Do any of you have any cards that are met with an immediate "veto" when randomly selecting a kingdom? When it is just my wife and I playing, we usually disregard the following cards when they come up:

Treasure Map - Too "swingy" for my taste. It seems if you're the first to connect on it, you're bound to win the game. May as well flip a coin to see who gets to top-deck 4 golds first.

Possession - We really like the Alchemy set a lot, but this card is just crazy! It was fun to play the first few times, but it quickly fell out of favor.

King's Court - My wife's least favorite card, she feels it is too powerful. I mostly agree.

Saboteur - My least favorite card. Just so aggravating!

I'm not saying any of these reasons are valid - these cards may even be among your favorites. I'd like to know if any of you have any cards you veto, and why?
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Don't Blink
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I always welcome King's Court. I find it hard to "hit" though, I guess I'm not doing it well.
Possession is already expensive, so that's enough deterrent IMO.
I see what you mean about Treasure Map, but I think it favours any/all players equally, if they play it well.

I veto Spy, because it just plain sucks.
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The Compulsive Completist
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Saboteur and Black Market.
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Ryan Hackel
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Almost any Attack card or Curse giver is shot on sight. Thief, Saboteur and Embargo are especially unwelcome.

We seldom use Alchemy, either.

Band of Misfits is on our Banned list.
 
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David Goldfarb
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Scrying Pool, because it leads to incredibly long turns that are incredibly boring for the other players -- and it's a powerful enough card that it's hard to avoid using it.

Rebuild, because it pretty much forces a strategy, and not a very interesting one.
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Matt E
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I'll just leave this here: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=5495

cerulean wrote:
Band of Misfits is on our Banned list.

Wait, what? What's objectionable about Band of Misfits? Also, it sounds like your group just really wants to play solitaire Dominion. No Attack cards?
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Chris
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LastFootnote wrote:
I want my Sheep cards!

Quote:

Wait, what? What's objectionable about Band of Misfits? Also, it sounds like your group just really wants to play solitaire Dominion. No Attack cards?
Blanket ban on attacks does sound crappy, but then most attacks do just primarily impede others which can draw a game out a hell of a lot.
 
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Karl
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The only card I really hate is the "Trickser" - whatever it is called in English. That one that replaces enemy cards with random ones of the same cost. So games often degrade to a completely random deck with not much strategy left.
 
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J. R.
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kilrah wrote:
"Trickser" - whatever it is called in English


By the way, is there a comparing list of the cards in different languages? I couldn't find one so far. It would be very helpful, for example for using The Complete Guide Dominion Companion with a game not in english.
 
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Hmmm, one "issue" is, there isn't necessarily 1 card that I absolutely hate. It ends up being how some of them end up combo-ing with others that creates friction (so an ode Joker's binary poison scheme?). That said...


Torturer - Vets, DonX, and the Dom team have said this isn't that bad, as you always have the option to just take a Curse (or 2) and still be able to get a Province. And if you're on a set with alternative Cursing that doles 'em out quickly, then once the Curses are gone, you could always just take a Curse that doesn't exist. However, chalk this up to another one of those cards that bogs the game down

Alchemist - specific to one group... there's a rush on them, and now, everyone has to go for them, else, one person who got 5 to 10 of them will just dominate, not to mention play out 10+ to 20+ cards per turn

Ghost Ship - also bogs down the game, in its own unique way. If it's in, I won't necessarily veto it if that's the kind of game parameters we've set, but another card I'd rather not deal with.

Black Market - I'm still not used to the idea of doing your Buy during your Action phase. If nothing else, I'd like to see folks play Treasure cards with text (e.g. Loan, Venture, etc.) during this just to see how things are mixed up.
At least the setup isn't as bad if you use tricks:
-don't use all 200 something cards from all sets. Also saves on special setups like Prizes from Tournament, Ruins from any Looter cards, and Bane cards via Young Witch
-someone shuffles the randomizers, and makes that into the Black Market deck. When someone buys a card, find the actual, Kingdom card without the randomizer back to replace the randomizer
-Someone asked on the Forums if there was an app that shuffles, customizes, and reveals the BM deck for you, so you won't have to mess with physical cards there, and I think there was at least one software that does do that.




Treasure Map... I'm amused how so many newbies end up making this work... No accusations, but I suspect poor shuffling when there aren't any sifters and such. We have had incorrect play that we've called out... "Moat, draw 2 cards, YES! Playing a Treasure Map, and trashing the other one in my hand! Can't do that, you're out of actions

Kings Court is awesome, but more swinginess, as you're hosed if they keep missing



Situational, but attacks where the player to the left of me is the only one who buys them, but it hits everyone (I got Militia-d, but couldn't even scrounge enough $$ in time to buy my own Militia).

Still situational, like games where those that couldn't get to $6 for Gold early on already lost, as those with Gold will get Platinum and get a jump start on their engine. Those who couldn't get to Gold had to settle for Silver since the only $5 was Mandarin, and all the 4s and 3s were also subpar.
 
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Adam Lucas
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I think he's talking about the Swindler.

The only card I'll knock out if it comes up is the Black Market due to the extra setup time and the fact that I have all my cards in tiny boxes. Playing with that card would drive me nuts.

It's your loss on leaving out the Attack cards. I love the extra strategies involved with using them or planning for them. At the very least your opponents will fill their decks with junk to mitigate your damage. That gives you more time to build your engine.
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Ryan Hackel
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TheRocketSurgeon wrote:

Quote:
Wait, what? What's objectionable about Band of Misfits? Also, it sounds like your group just really wants to play solitaire Dominion. No Attack cards?

Blanket ban on attacks does sound crappy, but then most attacks do just primarily impede others which can draw a game out a hell of a lot.

Exactly. One of my regular contestants is strongly opposed to Action cards that slow the game down, or take cards out of her hand/deck. Attack cards are frequently, but not always, vetoed on spec. Multi-player solitaire is the only format that all four of us can agree on.

That said, a few Attack cards are tolerated, like Bureaucrat, Ambassador, and Militia, and most of the other Attack cards are not permanently banned yet. This leaves the door open for Attacking in case we're in the mood.

Band of Misfits has led us to the FAQ and errata every time it comes up, which delays the game, thus we leave it out. I consider it likely that Black Market will eventually share the same fate.
 
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Bill H
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I hear a lot of people say they aren't fond of Black Market. We enjoy playing with it - in fact, that has been the only card where we've ever actively put it in the kingdom before selecting the rest of the cards randomly.

We also use the entire balance of the shuffle deck as the Black Market deck... (I'm guessing some of you may be squirming after reading that). We don't find the setup that big of a deal , and our storage solution is such that grabbing a copy of the purchased card also isn't a big deal. Cleanup takes a bit longer, but we don't mind that either.

All of that said, I do understand why some people aren't fond of it, which is a bit ironic since you have to actively seek that card out in order to own it in the first place
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Max DuBoff
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The more I play Dominion, the more I learn that Dominion has no unbeatable card. Everything depends on the other cards. I won't veto any card.

This isn't to say that there aren't any annoying cards (I'm looking at you, Knights), but annoying doesn't usually translate to unbeatable.
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MD1616 wrote:
The more I play Dominion, the more I learn that Dominion has no unbeatable card. Everything depends on the other cards. I won't veto any card

This isn't to say that there aren't any annoying cards (I'm looking at you, Knights), but annoying doesn't usually translate to unbeatable.
I believe this thread also encompasses cards you are definitely beatable, but are annoying none of the less.
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Matthew Cordeiro
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We used to veto Saboteur, but people eventually caught on to the fact that it really isn't that great of a card. So, he's off the veto list.

Black Market used to get vetoed a lot for logistical reasons, but now we'll play with it occasionally.

I have all of the expansions, so even the "annoying" cards aren't bad if they only get used once every 20 plays or so.
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Derek Whaley
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felipe1982 wrote:

I see what you mean about Treasure Map, but I think it favours any/all players equally, if they play it well.


Treasure Map favors players in turn order and does not favor players who unluckily draw 2 or 3 coin cards. I played a 4-player game where the entire pile went right away. First ten purchases were Treasure Maps, but that meant that the first two players ended up with three maps each, while the other two only received two. Eventually, three of the four players were able to place a pair of maps down, but the player who did not (me, unfortunately) was an unlucky soul with only two maps in his deck.

Treasure Maps is a very swingy card with no real purpose other than increasing the luck and first player bias in the game.
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Chris Schumann
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One easy way to get the evil eye in Dominion: Buy three Treasure Maps in a five player game.
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Todd Adair
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Ill-Gotten Gains is the worst... IMHO

Whenever that's in the game it's like all anyone focuses on and it becomes a race.
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Taylor Nakamoto
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Whizkid wrote:
One easy way to get the evil eye in Dominion: Buy three Treasure Maps in a five player game.


One easy way to get the evil eye in Dominion: play a five player game. whistle
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Matthew Cordeiro
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southj95 wrote:
Ill-Gotten Gains is the worst... IMHO

Whenever that's in the game it's like all anyone focuses on and it becomes a race.

My experience is that it's no different than any other curser. You'd better get in on it or deal with the consequences. The silver lining with IGG is that every time you get a curse, the player who gave it to you just got a copper.
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Matt N

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Treasure map - I'd probably leave this out of the box honestly.

Saboteur - Has its rare uses but not worth the trouble to me

King's Court - Powerful but not always useful. I have won a king's court game without buying any king's courts before. It's also a strategic card (much like chapel) in that even when it's mandatory, making the optimal strategy is not trivial. I'd recommend leaving it around.

King's Court is probably too powerful for a group that is too "nice" for clogging attacks however.

Spy - it has its place, although I'd veto it against compulsive chainers. Spy makes more sense when mixed with Intrigue anyway (or in the presence of other "top deck" attacks).
 
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cordeiro wrote:
southj95 wrote:
Ill-Gotten Gains is the worst... IMHO

Whenever that's in the game it's like all anyone focuses on and it becomes a race.

My experience is that it's no different than any other curser. You'd better get in on it or deal with the consequences. The silver lining with IGG is that every time you get a curse, the player who gave it to you just got a copper.
Another thing is that with IGG, you do it once, whereas with other curse givers like Witch, it's buy once and you get to keep using it.

However, even though IGG sticks you with a Copper, it may be worth from time to time to take a Copper to get $2 out of it. Unless it's a long term game, the extra Coppers shouldn't have such a huge impact.
 
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Todd Adair
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Just saying every time IGG shows up both players seem to go after it then the game kind of returns to normal after that.

If you don't go after it you get socked with 10 curses.
I know the copper is a little deterrent for them but still.

 
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Matt E
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Whaleyland wrote:
felipe1982 wrote:

I see what you mean about Treasure Map, but I think it favours any/all players equally, if they play it well.


Treasure Map favors players in turn order and does not favor players who unluckily draw 2 or 3 coin cards. I played a 4-player game where the entire pile went right away. First ten purchases were Treasure Maps, but that meant that the first two players ended up with three maps each, while the other two only received two. Eventually, three of the four players were able to place a pair of maps down, but the player who did not (me, unfortunately) was an unlucky soul with only two maps in his deck.

Treasure Maps is a very swingy card with no real purpose other than increasing the luck and first player bias in the game.


The problem is with groupthink. Your entire group perceives Treasure Map as powerful, so you all scramble for it. Because everyone goes for a Treasure Map strategy, whoever pulls it off first wins. Therefore everybody keeps thinking Treasure Map is powerful.

Treasure Map is weak. If you have Warehouse/Haven/Tactician/etc., it can be worth going for. In the absence of cards like that which help you connect two Maps, it's usually better to skip it. Even once you connect the two Maps, it's not an auto-win. An opponent pursuing an alternate strategy has usually had better hands with which to construct his deck.

Next time you play with Treasure Map (if there is a next time), try pursuing a different strategy and see how it goes.

EDIT: Oh, also, what do you mean by "First 10 purchases were Treasure Maps"? Did people just pass on their hands with less than $4? Last time I checked, you can't open Treasure Map/Treasure Map without Baker in the game.
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