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Android: Netrunner» Forums » Rules

Subject: OP rules question - can the TO play in a Store Tournament? rss

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Jake Helms
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Hello!

As the Store Tournaments were announced, I believe they were announced as being Premier Tournaments. Sitting at work, I can't check. I also do believe that the Tournament Rules say that TO's are not allowed to play in Premier Tournaments, as they must have their full attention on judging the game.

However, I just saw a post on Reddit describing how a guy got official word from FFG that TO's were allowed to play in Store Tournaments, as long as they had a 2nd TO to judge games in which they themselves were announced.

The thing is, I usually TO our Game Night Kits. I'd love to run the local Store Tournament, but I've chosen to simply play in it, as I was of belief that the TO would not be able to compete in the case that I TO'd it. Did someone at FFG just make a fuck-up, allowing a TO to play in Store Tournaments?

On a related note, as far as I can see, the Chronos Protocol Tour has not been announced as being a Premier Tournament - which does mean that a TO would be allowed to play in it, right?

Thanks in advance for any information on the subject.
 
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Roberta Yang
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I'd be pretty uncomfortable if the final judge of ruling disputes, violations, etc at a tournament were also in the tournament competing for prizes.
 
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Jake Helms
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salty53 wrote:
I'd be pretty uncomfortable if the final judge of ruling disputes, violations, etc at a tournament were also in the tournament competing for prizes.


While I do appreciate your input and concern, that's a whole other matter. I do believe the local playerbase would be fine with it, as I both TO and compete in our Game Night tournaments, which hasn't caused any trouble.
I do believe that having a TO who's also competing would be better than having a TO who isn't familiar with the finer rulings of card interactions. I will, of course, consider the fact that being a judge _AND_ a competitor is a very special thing, and I don't know if I would want to be both in an important event, but before I really delve into that, I'd like to know if I'm actually allowed to do so.
 
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N O
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Even if it's allowed on paper, it's still a conflict of interest.
 
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Mark Campo
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TOs? ah tourney organizer?
 
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Jake Helms
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Milarky wrote:
TOs? ah tourney organizer?


Yup, TO = Tournament Organizer.

Alessandro, that is about the ethics and not the rules. I do believe that most of the players will still be asking those of us who usually TO monthly tournaments and attend and organize weekly meet-ups about rules questions. It would, in any case, be more easy and efficient than having the TO be a store employee who rarely plays himself, and who we'd have to introduce the program used for running tournaments to.

In any case, what I'm mostly interested in is whether or not the TO is allowed to participate, as I will be attending 6 Store Tournaments in the coming month, so I'd like to be sure before I either a) TO a Store Tournament while playing and breaking the rules, b) miss out on participating in/TO'ing a Store Tournament if you are actually allowed to do so or c) call somebody else out on TO'ing a Store Tournament while competing in it.
 
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Tagore Nakornchai
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Terrificy wrote:
Hello!

As the Store Tournaments were announced, I believe they were announced as being Premier Tournaments. Sitting at work, I can't check. I also do believe that the Tournament Rules say that TO's are not allowed to play in Premier Tournaments, as they must have their full attention on judging the game.

However, I just saw a post on Reddit describing how a guy got official word from FFG that TO's were allowed to play in Store Tournaments, as long as they had a 2nd TO to judge games in which they themselves were announced.

The thing is, I usually TO our Game Night Kits. I'd love to run the local Store Tournament, but I've chosen to simply play in it, as I was of belief that the TO would not be able to compete in the case that I TO'd it. Did someone at FFG just make a fuck-up, allowing a TO to play in Store Tournaments?

On a related note, as far as I can see, the Chronos Protocol Tour has not been announced as being a Premier Tournament - which does mean that a TO would be allowed to play in it, right?

Thanks in advance for any information on the subject.


I was TO/Head Judge at a Game of Thrones regionals last year that i played in.

It was agreed between the players that there would be a secondary judge whose rulings would be as valid as mine, and who would have the final say on anything that involved me.

Nothing actually came up on the day, but I'm pretty sure it would have worked well enough.
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Jake Helms
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Thanks for the input, Tagore. That was the exact setup I was planning to use to TO/play in the tournament, if legal.

The Tournament Rules explicitly state, however, that TO's are not allowed to play in Premier Tournaments, which include Regionals - the real question is if Store Tournaments is included here.

I'm especially worried about just jumping the gun here, because the stores with succesful Store Tournaments will be the ones chosen for running Regional Tournaments - it'd be a shame if the store lost out on running a Regional, as we're the only store in the capital (with the hugest player-base in the country) that can host one.
 
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Peter Hodges
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Just to be clear, the rules say:

Tournament Organizer Participation
The TO may participate in a tournament for which he or she
is responsible only if there is a second tournament organizer
present. This second TO must be present and announced at the
beginning of the tournament, and is responsible for all rulings
for games in which the primary TO is playing.

-pg 3, http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/android-netrun...

Nothing about premiere tournaments excluding TOs or whatever. So go crazy, these are the words of FFG.
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mplain
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Gents, even though the Tournament Rules explicitly state that TOs are not allowed to participate in premier events hosted by them, and even though FFG says that Store Championships are premier events, the paper included in the kit itself state that TOs and judges may participate in Store Championships as long as there is at least one other TO or judge present. That other person may participate as well. So no dedicated organizing personnel is required by the rules.

And, as we know, if the text of a card directly contradicts the rules...
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Peter Hodges
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mplain wrote:
Gents, even though the Tournament Rules explicitly state that TOs are not allowed to participate in premier events hosted by them, and even though FFG says that Store Championships are premier events, the paper included in the kit itself state that TOs and judges may participate in Store Championships as long as there is at least one other TO or judge present. That other person may participate as well. So no dedicated organizing personnel is required by the rules.

And, as we know, if the text of a card directly contradicts the rules...


Furthermore the rules DON'T say that TOs are not allowed to participate. All signs say go for it. http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/android-netrun...
 
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Jake Helms
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mplain wrote:
Gents, even though the Tournament Rules explicitly state that TOs are not allowed to participate in premier events hosted by them, and even though FFG says that Store Championships are premier events, the paper included in the kit itself state that TOs and judges may participate in Store Championships as long as there is at least one other TO or judge present. That other person may participate as well. So no dedicated organizing personnel is required by the rules.

And, as we know, if the text of a card directly contradicts the rules...


Thank you, that was _EXACTLY_ what I was hoping for. Haven't had time to look at the kit yet, which the store owner has.
 
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mplain
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Here's the paper a was talking about.
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14628474#14628474

Quote:
Bryan:

I am writing to answer your question about TO participation in a Store Championship Tournament. If you have not opened the tournament kit at the store, there is a letter to Tournament Organizers included within. Here is an excerpt from said letter in answer to your question:

Your Role as Tournament Organizer

The Tournament Organizer (TO) is the individual responsible for the event as a whole. Depending on the size and nature of the event, the TO’s responsibilities can vary - they may delegate tasks such as judging and scorekeeping to other officials at larger events. The TO’s responsibilities are:

o Providing a suitable venue for the event and maintaining a safe and comfortable atmosphere for players and staff.

o Supplying any materials required to run the tournament, such as blank squad lists, table numbers, and means of tracking scores and posting pairings.

o Announcing the details of the event, including location, format, time, prizes, round structure and any other details players need to know.

o Running the event and keeping players informed of any information they need to know.

o Enforcing the official tournament rules, issuing appropriate penalties and acting in the role of judge if there is not other judge present.

o Tracking players’ scores, calculating tournament pairings and posting pairings if there is no scorekeeper present.

o The TO may only participate in the Store Championship Tournament if there is another judge present to rule on their games. That judge may also participate in the event.

Please feel free to contact me with any other questions you may have about the Store Championships or any other Organized Play program.

Thanks for playing!

Ian Birdsall
Organized Play Associate
Fantasy Flight Games
 
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Derrick Billings
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mplain wrote:
Here's the paper a was talking about.
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14628474#14628474

Quote:
Bryan:

I am writing to answer your question about TO participation in a Store Championship Tournament. If you have not opened the tournament kit at the store, there is a letter to Tournament Organizers included within. Here is an excerpt from said letter in answer to your question:

Your Role as Tournament Organizer

The Tournament Organizer (TO) is the individual responsible for the event as a whole. Depending on the size and nature of the event, the TO’s responsibilities can vary - they may delegate tasks such as judging and scorekeeping to other officials at larger events. The TO’s responsibilities are:

o Providing a suitable venue for the event and maintaining a safe and comfortable atmosphere for players and staff.

o Supplying any materials required to run the tournament, such as blank squad lists, table numbers, and means of tracking scores and posting pairings.

o Announcing the details of the event, including location, format, time, prizes, round structure and any other details players need to know.

o Running the event and keeping players informed of any information they need to know.

o Enforcing the official tournament rules, issuing appropriate penalties and acting in the role of judge if there is not other judge present.

o Tracking players’ scores, calculating tournament pairings and posting pairings if there is no scorekeeper present.

o The TO may only participate in the Store Championship Tournament if there is another judge present to rule on their games. That judge may also participate in the event.

Please feel free to contact me with any other questions you may have about the Store Championships or any other Organized Play program.

Thanks for playing!

Ian Birdsall
Organized Play Associate
Fantasy Flight Games


Due to the turnout I'm expecting, I anticipate that I will serve my players better by focusing on running a tight ship, not splitting my attention between playing and administrating.
 
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Raf Cordero
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Grimwalker wrote:

Due to the turnout I'm expecting, I anticipate that I will serve my players better by focusing on running a tight ship, not splitting my attention between playing and administrating.


This is the stance I'm taking. If 32 players sign, I obviously won't take a spot for myself. Otherwise, it will depend on how many people there are. Likely, I'll play if we have an odd number and the total attendance isn't huge.

However, if I'm playing I have a duty to the tourney as a TO but also a duty to my opponent not to slow down/stall our game. If I feel like there are too many people for me to function effectively in both roles, I'll step out. Any odd player would then receive a bye and would be welcome to sit and play a friendly game with me, with the understanding that our friendly game will not be my top priority.
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Kevin Jones
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As I understand it, a TO can play in these tournaments so long as there is another TO available to settle any disputes that might arise. After all, the TO is the one called over if there is any dispute in the rules, so is there's a dispute in the TO's game, there must be another TO to make a ruling on the dispute. I also shutter to think what might happen should 2 TOs play against each other and a rules dispute arises...
 
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Bryan Blumklotz
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Kevin, that is why you should have 3 Judges designated. That way if two are at the same table the third can adjudicate. I ultimately sat out the Store Championship that I TOed, felt I could do a better job from the side lines. I am playing in the next one in my area.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Saracenus wrote:
Kevin, that is why you should have 3 Judges designated. That way if two are at the same table the third can adjudicate.


This. An N-player game requires a minimum of N+1 judges or a non-playing judge.
 
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