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Subject: Moving along PDF and Overhead rss

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Thomas Billaud
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Hello Gentlemen,

Here is the situation :

A
B
C

A is a Hill card with an enemy unit.
B is empty card
C is a card with with friendly unit.

A PDF is coming from C to A.

Firstly, Can I move friendly unit along a PDF ?( I think yes, I always played like this).

Then, if I move a unit from C to B. My units in C cannot overhead fire to A ( no H or tripod MG), and I do not have Action Points anymore to stop fire.

How do deal with this ?

I firstly thought overhead fire is from a upper elevation to a lower one. But I m not sure at all.

I think it s a common situation no ?

 
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Antonio B-D
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My guess---

Pg 24 of v2 of the rules.

"A US unit will not open fire through a card containing another US
unit. However, a US unit with an existing PDF will continue to fire
at a card even if another friendly unit moves into that card."

I understand this to mean that if you move to the same card your troops are attacking, you are subject to friendly fire. If you move to a card between the attacked place and the attacker, the attacker stops firing.

So, in your example if you go to A, C would continue firing. But if you go to B, C would stop firing. Tricky.
 
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chris leko
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Would you shift the PDF back to the card that is now occupied by your friendly troops? I can't imagine this to be way to "game" a free cease fire order.
 
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Thomas Billaud
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Yep, That s the way I did. But, it gives you a free Stop Fire order.

Not an issue, but strange.
 
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John Brown
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Last bullet point of 5.1.2 (it's on p20 of the v2.1 rules):
Quote:

Friendly units CANNOT move THROUGH a friendly line of fire. They can move INTO a card that is receiving friendly fire, but not through a card that is in the line of friendly fire. The same is true for the enemy, in that the enemy will not move THROUGH an ENEMY line of fire...

So, no you cannot move into B. You could move from a card beside B or A into card A.

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Thomas Billaud
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Granger44 wrote:
Last bullet point of 5.1.2 (it's on p20 of the v2.1 rules):
Quote:

Friendly units CANNOT move THROUGH a friendly line of fire. They can move INTO a card that is receiving friendly fire, but not through a card that is in the line of friendly fire. The same is true for the enemy, in that the enemy will not move THROUGH an ENEMY line of fire...

So, no you cannot move into B. You could move from a card beside B or A into card A.


Actually, It s not really moving through, it s moving along.

If I cannot moving in this way, how can you move into a card containing an enemy unit ?

Because, you usually moving adjacent to the enemy card, your units open fire ( mandatory if spotted). You cannot stop them firing because they automaticcaly re-open fire. With you point of view, you can never enter the card.
 
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Antonio B-D
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Granger44 wrote:
Last bullet point of 5.1.2 (it's on p20 of the v2.1 rules):
Quote:

Friendly units CANNOT move THROUGH a friendly line of fire. They can move INTO a card that is receiving friendly fire, but not through a card that is in the line of friendly fire. The same is true for the enemy, in that the enemy will not move THROUGH an ENEMY line of fire...

So, no you cannot move into B. You could move from a card beside B or A into card A.


My post above is wrong. This is now my interpretation.
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Thomas Billaud
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Really? So my tactic to fire at the enemy card, infiltrate this card from the firing card and then stop firing is wrong ?

 
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Paul Spak
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solea wrote:
Really? So my tactic to fire at the enemy card, infiltrate this card from the firing card and then stop firing is wrong ?

Card C - cease fire first, move to intervening card B, open fire from new card B at card A. Old card C with (now) blocked PDF fires at new target, or no fire if no other target.

Of course infiltration can only occur into or from a card under a VOF. I often will cease fire after this movement, seems perfectly logical.

You can always move onto a card, just keep track of which way the lead is flying. Best VOF, if you're firing small arms at him, and the enemy is firing automatic weapons at you, there is no issue.

It's the EXPOSED marker that gets you killed.
 
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Thomas Billaud
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oldbrownsfan wrote:
solea wrote:
Really? So my tactic to fire at the enemy card, infiltrate this card from the firing card and then stop firing is wrong ?

Card C - cease fire first, move to intervening card B, open fire from new card B at card A. Old card C with (now) blocked PDF fires at new target, or no fire if no other target.

Of course infiltration can only occur into or from a card under a VOF. I often will cease fire after this movement, seems perfectly logical.

You can always move onto a card, just keep track of which way the lead is flying. Best VOF, if you're firing small arms at him, and the enemy is firing automatic weapons at you, there is no issue.

It's the EXPOSED marker that gets you killed.

If you cease fire the crd C, they will automatically re open fire on A. You do not have time to move a unit on the card B.

Actually the question is: does moving along a PDF is the same that moving through a PDF.
 
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Paul Spak
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solea wrote:
You do not have time to move a unit on the card B.

Movement and cease fire occurs during the friendly command phase (3.3), fire occurs in the mutual combat phase (3.7), and new PDF/VOF's are placed in 3.7.1b. Immediate is a relative term, as used here.

Vehicles are the only units with a movement factor greater than 1 card/turn. Infantry cannot move through anything, only into or out of. My understanding of the rules would be that it's not allowed without a cease or shift fire order first.

But I'm no expert, big game, lot's o' rules.
 
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John Brown
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Let me rephrase my earlier reply since I don't think I was clear or complete.

Movement automatically causes a cease fire, so as long as all the firing units from C are moving to B, that is legal. In your example, the units would resume firing automatically after the move. If even one unit putting out a VOF remains, the movement from C to B is not allowed.

Similarly, another unit from a card adjacent to B could not move into B while friendly fire passed through B.

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Thomas Billaud
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oldbrownsfan wrote:
solea wrote:
You do not have time to move a unit on the card B.

Movement and cease fire occurs during the friendly command phase (3.3), fire occurs in the mutual combat phase (3.7), and new PDF/VOF's are placed in 3.7.1b. Immediate is a relative term, as used here.

Vehicles are the only units with a movement factor greater than 1 card/turn. Infantry cannot move through anything, only into or out of. My understanding of the rules would be that it's not allowed without a cease or shift fire order first.

But I'm no expert, big game, lot's o' rules.

3.7.1.b says to place PDF anf VOF for news units. The already placed units adjust their VOF during the previous phases : Command phase for friendly units ( eventually combat phase for blocked los due to the incoming).

I m pretty confident with that rule, but I may be wrong.

That s why you always need a game designer in your pocket.

If Ben Hull could answer it, it would be much appreciated.
 
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Thomas Billaud
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Granger44 wrote:
Let me rephrase my earlier reply since I don't think I was clear or complete.

Movement automatically causes a cease fire, so as long as all the firing units from C are moving to B, that is legal. In your example, the units would resume firing automatically after the move. If even one unit putting out a VOF remains, the movement from C to B is not allowed.

Similarly, another unit from a card adjacent to B could not move into B while friendly fire passed through B.


Ok, you seem confident, so I was wrong for 3 years....soblue
 
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Paul Spak
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no, you're not wrong.

Look, this is a fairly complex game - the average joe isn't even going to get past the first page of the rule book. Not for any lack of capacity, but the work to fun ratio is too high for the average gamer.

I've had the game for four years, played thru every campaign once, WWII twice, and still... every time I play it I'll find another rule, by now most are small & special case items but its that kind of game.

You've been playing fine dude!

But you have to explain to me the purpose of a cease fire order. Seems in your construct it would be a worthless expense of an order. And in a real world sense the order-pair of 'Hold your fire, men! Sgt Smith take your men forward' probably goes back to the origin of missle combat.
 
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Thomas Billaud
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The cease fire order for me was to stop firing, for example, to an empty card.

Or to stop firing when a card has both enemy and friendly card.

With your way of playing, how do you infiltrate an enemy card to assault it ?

With my ( false) interpretation, I firstly fix the enemy with a base of fire, then infiltrate from this card, then stop firing at the the card.Tthen, make a grenade attack.

My interpretation came from that post :

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/7119315#7119315

And that ( from a different post :

Quote:
3. Does ordering a cease fire on an empty card have the same essential effect as a shift fire order?

Shift Fire allows you to pick where they shoot. Cease Fire causes them to stop shooting and immediately re-engage per 6.1 targeting priorities (if there's a valid target).

I also find this on CSW :

[Luscher, Mark]
Cease Fire and Moving

I handle cease fire as Roger described - the units will immediately open fire again if they have a valid target. You re-evaluate the targeting priorities given in 6.1, so if there's a closer target or an equidistant one with higher VOF, they could change targets.

Similarly, a unit that moves to a new card will immediately open fire from it's new location if it has a valid target or there's a pre-existing PDF. Again, re-evaluate the targeting priorities anew.

I recently had the following situation in a game:

A - enemy unit on a hill

B - unoccupied card

C - US Plt HQ, MG team, and a squad.

US units in C were firing on A. I wanted to move just the US squad to B, but they aren't allowed to move into a friendly line of fire (5.1.2) - the MG team would still be firing. And since the US units (MG team in particular) would immediately open fire on A again, a cease fire command wouldn't work. Therefore, I used a shift fire action instead, having them target their own card (C). The squad could then move to B and I later issued a cease fire command to get the MG team to stop shooting up bushes. A bit awkward, but it got the job done.





With your interpretation, in order to infiltrate, you need to fire a card and then infiltrate from a different card no ?

 
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Ben Hull
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Quote:
Vehicles are the only units with a movement factor greater than 1 card/turn. Infantry cannot move through anything, only into or out of. My understanding of the rules would be that it's not allowed without a cease or shift fire order first.

Through happens because of diagonals. If a unit moves diagonally it could potentially move through a friendly PDF, which is not allowed.


Quote:
The cease fire order for me was to stop firing, for example, to an empty card. Or to stop firing when a card has both enemy and friendly card.

That is 100% correct. Cease fire works when there is no other valid target, Shift fires is fire at another valid target - of your choosing versus the automatic target priorities

You are allowed to move into a card that has a friendly VOF - so you can assault a position - it would be very difficult to do so in the game if that was forbidden.

The reason we needed to prevent the diagonal movement through a PDF is that was no way to capture the consequences. Moving into a card with a friendly VOF has consequences - you must cease or shift fire or your unit will suffer the potential effects of friendly fire.

There are a couple of counter-intuitive actions when assaulting a card due to the process flow of the rules - these are ceasing fire and using smoke. Intuitively you stop firing and move an assault element - due to the game mechanisms you do it backwards to achieve the same overall result - same goes for smoke, the game abstracts the range so to cover the movement with smoke you move then deploy a smoke grenade in the new card to get the same effect as the combat is rolled up at the end of all these actions.






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Thomas Billaud
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Thanks.

So moving along a PDF is allowed or not, Ben ?
 
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Thomas Billaud
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Mmmm... So if through is for diagonal, I guess I can move along. So for my firstquestion, I guess I simply cannot move on card B, except if I first shift my fire on my own card.
 
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Paul Spak
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benhull wrote:
That is 100% correct. Cease fire works when there is no other valid target, Shift fires is fire at another valid target - of your choosing versus the automatic target priorities...

You are allowed to move into a card that has a friendly VOF -Moving into a card with a friendly VOF has consequences - you must cease or shift fire or your unit will suffer the potential effects of friendly fire.

There are a couple of counter-intuitive actions when assaulting a card due to the process flow of the rules - these are ceasing fire and using smoke. Intuitively you stop firing and move an assault element - due to the game mechanisms you do it backwards to achieve the same overall result - same goes for smoke, the game abstracts the range so to cover the movement with smoke you move then deploy a smoke grenade in the new card to get the same effect as the combat is rolled up at the end of all these actions.

This seems to cover your question, moving along would be the same as moving into a VOF. As I read it; #1 move in, #2 cease/shift fire, or take it in the back.
 
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