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Subject: Abstaining From The Vote rss

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Charlie Theel
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I mentioned this in the "vote up" thread but it was tangential and did not receive any comments. We tested this some more and I vastly prefer allowing players to not place a vote.

Why?

-It gets rid of the awkward vote in a circle thing

-It prevents intentional or unintentional cheating. What do you do in the standard rules when someone is slow to place their vote and delays just slightly to see who other people vote for? With the no vote option you immediately stop when the App says place your votes. If you delayed too long oh well, not voting is now legal.

-It solves the extreme annoyance of the Tanner tanking the game. Villagers should never auto lose if they've played well.

I see no advantage to forcing a vote and only advantages to allowing people to abstain from voting.
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Scot Ryder
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So you've never bluffed what your vote was going to be? I've used it to great effect when no one (but me) thought there was a werewolf active.

I was wrong and they were the hunter. Pretty great.
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charlest wrote:
-It solves the extreme annoyance of the Tanner tanking the game. Villagers should never auto lose if they've played well.
How does it get solved? Tanner only needs to point a villager when everyone else abstains, and everyone loses. At least there is a non-zero chance for the villagers with circle lynch.
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Charlie Theel
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a1bert wrote:
charlest wrote:
-It solves the extreme annoyance of the Tanner tanking the game. Villagers should never auto lose if they've played well.
How does it get solved? Tanner only needs to point a villager when everyone else abstains, and everyone loses. At least there is a non-zero chance for the villagers with circle lynch.

You need 2 or more votes, same as base game.
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Charlie Theel
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Bean-Boy wrote:
So you've never bluffed what your vote was going to be? I've used it to great effect when no one (but me) thought there was a werewolf active.

I was wrong and they were the hunter. Pretty great.

You can still bluff your vote, you could point at someone and change at the last second or take your finger down at the last second.
 
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Scot Ryder
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But bluffing that you'll vote around the table ensures that the person I suspect gets the second vote.

I think you're over thinking a 10 minute game. if you think the Tanner tanks games, don't use it.
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Charlie Theel
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Bean-Boy wrote:
But bluffing that you'll vote around the table ensures that the person I suspect gets the second vote.

I think you're over thinking a 10 minute game. if you think the Tanner tanks games, don't use it.

That is true, one player can't just take over the result of the game with this change. I'm not sure that's worth worrying about but I see your point.

I'm not over thinking anything, we accidentally played it wrong our first few games and find it easier to explain and adjudicate this way and started going back to it. We had the tanner tank a game but I don't see why we shouldn't play with him if a simple change that streamlines the game in other ways also has the benefit of sparing us a game which is un-winnable.

 
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Clyde W
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I think if you have to use house rules, 10 minute games are the perfect platform for that. Don't houserule Caverna, but this game? Sure, why not? It comes from a great lineage of houserulings, and effectively the rulebook is Ted's houserules of One Night Werewolf anyway (but with a ton of awesome roles added into the mix, of course, which make the game significantly better).
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Steven Albano
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I think I'm a fan on abstaining from the vote.

Because more often than not, the ones who don't want to vote are the ones that vote slowly and are influenced (whether knowingly or not) by the way the other fingers are pointing.
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Cameron McKenzie
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Allowing players from abstaining means that a rogue villager can't force a kill that nobody else wants. This means that occasionally the village will lose games that it otherwise would have won (if the rogue was right), and also means that they will win games that they otherwise would have lost (if the rogue was wrong).

I consider this a positive in both cases - if the (overwhelming) majority think there shouldn't be a kill, then there shouldn't be a kill.

This is also a very nice fix for the other "impossible" scenarios (tanner or minion with no wolves in the village).

It's a really simple change that fixes some pretty annoying issues in the game, and I don't see any downside at all. It really is a great variant.
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John Anderson
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You could introduce a concept I've seen in online mafia games - a vote for "no kill" - if the majority votes no kill then nobody dies. Maybe you could point straight up for a "no kill" vote? This is technically different than not voting, since not voting allows someone else to get a majority, whereas "no kill" can itself get the majority.
 
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Charlie Theel
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puck71 wrote:
You could introduce a concept I've seen in online mafia games - a vote for "no kill" - if the majority votes no kill then nobody dies. Maybe you could point straight up for a "no kill" vote? This is technically different than not voting, since not voting allows someone else to get a majority, whereas "no kill" can itself get the majority.

That would drastically change the game. The no vote keeps things very similar to the existing rule in the game with a slight tweak. Voting for no kill would increase some complications and make the Tanner possibly even more difficult to play. With no votes, the Tanner just needs to convince one person in a Non-Werewolf game. With No Kill voting he needs to convince the entire table (or at least the majority).
 
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It looks like this variant will fix that the Tanner may tank the game. I also agreed that it kinda streamlines the rules a bit.

But, in a 3 player game, will this variant work? Aren't we dependent on that the players have to vote? Or am I wrong?
 
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Charlie Theel
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Xaykev wrote:
It looks like this variant will fix that the Tanner may tank the game. I also agreed that it kinda streamlines the rules a bit.

But, in a 3 player game, will this variant work? Aren't we dependent on that the players have to vote? Or am I wrong?

What's different about a 3 player game?
 
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If there are 2 Werewolves how can a good guy win? He needs two votes to accuse, and people don't need to vote, right?!
 
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Xaykev wrote:
If there are 2 Werewolves how can a good guy win? He needs two votes to accuse, and people don't need to vote, right?!
Right. With normal rules a single villager could claim Robber and robbing a werewolf, and thus there is a chance for him to win by convincing the werewolves to split their votes. With abstaining possible, the other werewolf (who didn't 'get his role robbed') would just abstain and win regardless of how the other two players vote.
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So if I choose to play the rules of the variant, I still need to play with the official ones in a 3 player game. That kinda sucks.
 
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Charlie Theel
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a1bert wrote:
Xaykev wrote:
If there are 2 Werewolves how can a good guy win? He needs two votes to accuse, and people don't need to vote, right?!
Right. With normal rules a single villager could claim Robber and robbing a werewolf, and thus there is a chance for him to win by convincing the werewolves to split their votes. With abstaining possible, the other werewolf (who didn't 'get his role robbed') would just abstain and win regardless of how the other two players vote.

I guess that's true. Two wolves in a 3 player game is already kind of a hosed game though. I don't plan on playing this game 3 player honestly, the couple of times I did it was fine, but not as exceptional as 5+
 
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Charlie Theel
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I've thought about this more and convinced myself the Robber and two Wolves example is fine. First of all, I see all 3 players lying about what they are in that situation. Second, even if the table realizes what everyone started as, the Wolf who the Robber says he did NOT switch with cant always abstain from the vote. If I think the oter Wolf would abstain, then I would lie about which Wolf I stole from as the Robber. That would mean the new Robber, who thinks he is a Wolf, would abstain.

So you would still be stuck trying to figure out if you can trust the Robber, regardless of abstaining or not.
 
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charlest wrote:
I've thought about this more and convinced myself the Robber and two Wolves example is fine. First of all, I see all 3 players lying about what they are in that situation. Second, even if the table realizes what everyone started as, the Wolf who the Robber says he did NOT switch with cant always abstain from the vote. If I think the oter Wolf would abstain, then I would lie about which Wolf I stole from as the Robber. That would mean the new Robber, who thinks he is a Wolf, would abstain.

So you would still be stuck trying to figure out if you can trust the Robber, regardless of abstaining or not.
I think I agree now. Still, a game like that will be kinda scripted. Like you say, the players will be bluffing so the robber who takes a werewolf role, wont say it (he wants to stay hidden). Which again means that all players will believe they are a werewolf - which again will lead to no players voting.

The good thing is that even with the official rules the same thing would have happened; players would have agreed to vote in a circle.

Am I right?
 
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Scot Ryder
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That all depends on how convincing the bluffing player is.
 
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Charlie Theel
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Yes, that's an odd example because everyone would be looking to lie and it could play out in different ways depending on who believed who.
 
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Clyde W
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Xaykev wrote:
So if I choose to play the rules of the variant, I still need to play with the official ones in a 3 player game. That kinda sucks.
No. Seer isn't needed and TMaker isn't either. Robber is required though. I like:

Doppelgänger
Robber
TMaker
Wolf
Wolf
Minion (or Tanner)

That is crazy stuff.
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clydeiii wrote:
Xaykev wrote:
So if I choose to play the rules of the variant, I still need to play with the official ones in a 3 player game. That kinda sucks.
No. Seer isn't needed and TMaker isn't either. Robber is required though.
I was thinking about the rules, not the roles.

Anyway, with the "variant-rules" in a 3 player game with 2 werewolves, the-robber-that-changed to a werewolf will never say he did that. Why should he? His best chance to win is to stay hidden.

With the official rules he has to say he is the new werewolf, since the 2 other players need to vote. A huge difference there, isn't it?
 
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Charlie Theel
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Xaykev wrote:
clydeiii wrote:
Xaykev wrote:
So if I choose to play the rules of the variant, I still need to play with the official ones in a 3 player game. That kinda sucks.
No. Seer isn't needed and TMaker isn't either. Robber is required though.
I was thinking about the rules, not the roles.

Anyway, with the "variant-rules" in a 3 player game with 2 werewolves, the-robber-that-changed to a werewolf will never say he did that. Why should he? His best chance to win is to stay hidden.

With the official rules he has to say he is the new werewolf, since the 2 other players need to vote. A huge difference there, isn't it?

The Wolves would still be aware that there's a 25% chance the third player is the Robber. So they would have to discuss it and see what they want to do, they can't just trust him. It is different but I'm not convinced it's worse. Whether you vote and condemn yourself or do not vote and condemn yourself you still make a decision with imperfect information for better or for worse.

Think about it this way. If I was a Wolf that game and te Robber was refusing to talk and he planned on not voting, I would convince the other Wolf to vote for the non- original Wolf. I would say, "We're going to hang you (to the Robber) so you 100% lose, unless you give us something to go on." The robber won't keep quiet. Then the question becomes, do we really think this guy was a Robber?
 
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