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Subject: "Recruit Lieutenant" quest rss

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Mike Boucher
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Milton
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First, LOVING this game; obsessed with it. I could kiss my Secret Santa for not only getting me the game, but also the expansion. The iOS version is fab too.

Couple of questions on the "Recruit Lieutenant" quest; interested in what others think (hoping I didn't miss a post on this already):

1) After what round do you think it is no longer worth it to take/play the "Recruit Lieutenant" quest card?
2) Does your answer to #1 change if it's a 2/3/4/5 player game?

My thoughts:
Question 1:
- In general (excluding my additional considerations), my answer is playing the card after round 3 isn't worth it. And I'm not sure my answer changes much if it's more than a 2 player game. laying a 4/5 player game.

My rationale for my answer 1:
- The quest grants no VP; so you are giving up 8 adventurers (e.g. 8 VP's at end game) for 0 VP's. So in essence this trade sets you back at least 8 VP's (more than that if you value white/purple higher).
- Special buildings and bonuses aside; the 8 adventurers would take you a minimum of 6 moves (1 for white; 3 moves for 5 orange; 1 for black; 1 for purple). That's pretty steep.
- So that said, if you're giving up 6 moves/8 VP's for 1 extra agent; you'd better be getting at LEAST 5 moves for that agent; ideally more (if you could play in round 1 or two somehow, no one will argue with that). But if you play in round 4 or later and only get 4 or less moves for it - not worth it, IMO.

Exceptions to the rule:
a. If you are getting 4 extra VP's for completing warfare quests (if you have a Lord that gives you a warfare quest bonus), then MAYBE my answer changes by one round (round 4 the latest). But IMO, even with one of those Lord cards, I'd still rule it out after round 3.
b. I'm ruling out if you were getting 6 VP's for warfare quests (if you have A Lord with warfare bonus AND you've completed "Quell Mercenary Rising" you get the extra 2; but if you've completed that quest; it cost you a white and 4 orange; so it's going to take you that much longer to complete the "Recruit Lieutenant" quest.
c. If you have the "Recover the Magister's Orb" quest (which allows you to assign a space containing an opponent's agent), then having the Lieutenant is a pretty bitchin' combo; basically allowing you to have an extra agent at the end of every round - that you can have an empty board to place; so my answer would move up to round 4 or MAYBE round 5 if you could have both.
d. If you have buildings or bonuses that have give you multiple adventurers (e.g. Smuggler's Dock where you could get 4 orange in one move), then it becomes less moves for you to get the Lieutenant, but that doesn't change that when you play it matters on how many extra moves it gives you; so my answer doesn't change based on buildings or bonuses you may have in play. e.g. so what if it only took you 2 moves to get all 8 adventurers required - if you only have 2 moves left to use it then maybe you can get your VP's back but you then you still aren't gaining much of anything (with the exceptions of my a. and c. exceptions above).

So in summary, my answer to my first question is:
- Round 3 is the latest I'd play it; unless I had a Lord that gives me 4 VP's in which case round 4 is my max; unless I have the Magister's Orb in which case round 5 is my max.

On my question 2, I don't know which way to think of it. One argument could be that with only having as few as 2 agents to play in rounds 1-4 and 3 thereafter, that having an extra agent is REALLY important, and therefore having one agent more than the other players could be enough to turn the tides. But the flip side to me is that giving up 2-6 moves/plays to get one extra agent hardly seems worth it if you only have a few turns left to use it. So in short, unless I'm missing something; I don't think my answer to #1 changes based on number of players.

Thoughts/flaws with my logic? Am I over-thinking it? - (wait, don't answer that one; just answer my other questions!)
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Rauli Kettunen
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I think somebody did math on the Lieut, but for me, unless I can get the quest done by Round 4 WITHOUT compromising too much from other quests (pick adventurers here and there), I'd still consider it. R5 or later, next quest please. Ideally R1 or R2 (esp now with SoS in the mix for those juicy spots), depending on the situation, might not bother with it even on R3 or onwards. That said, I only play 2-player.
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Mike Boucher
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Thanks for the response. Sounds like we're on the same page. I mostly play only 2 player too, but not sure it matters much.

If anyone has a link to whoever did the math I'd love to see it. I looked and googled but didn't find anything.

BTW - my questions/thought process isn't much different with the "Defend the Tower of Luck" quest (where you get one bonus adventurer each round). That one is 5 adventurers/max of 5 moves - so my guess is anything after round 4 I'd pass on that one too.
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Some math:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/787146/the-lieutenant-to...
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Chad Miller
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Generally speaking, the non-plot quests are balanced around the assumption that one agent placement = 4VP. This valuation generally holds up as long as you spend the resources you generate, which is generally true of anything gathered in the early game, so it's a reasonable metric by which to judge plot quests when deciding if they're worth it. In the case of Recruit Lieutenant, you're looking at:

-5 Fighters (=10VP)
-1 Rogue (=2VP)
-1 Wizard (=4VP)
-1 Cleric (=4VP)

For a total of 20 VP...meaning about five extra placements to break even. You can adjust this figure based on various factors (do you have a Warfare lord, do you have fighters to spare, is the Zoarstar in play, etc) but that's the baseline.

By similar reasoning, Defend the Tower of luck costs ~16VP and gives back ~4VP/turn, including the turn you complete it, so you want to get at least four activations out of it, assuming they are Wizards/Clerics and you can spend them.

Some other numbers:

-The "2 VP for completing [Quest type]" quests all break even after two activations
-As do the "[bonus] when you collect [resource]" quests
-Place a Sleeper Agent in Skullport needs 7 activations to break even, making it easily the worst quest in the game, especially with more than three players.
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Carson Adams
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Honestly I have got a lot of value out of the lieutenant picking it up as late as turn 6. I was going for warfare and arcana quests and I pulled some shenanigans where I completed the quest that allows you to return some of your agents to your pool while I moved off the last space in waterdeep harbor then played another 3 agents on waterdeep harbor played both intrigue cards that allow you to return agents to your pool then moved all those agents back off waterdeep harbor. And I wouldn't have been able to pull it off without the lieutenant. Obviously you can't count on that happening but I had 1 of the 2 intrigue cards already and picked up the quest from Cliff Watch using the lieutenant the same turn I got it. But it did allow me to place about 6 or so extra agents uninterrupted (counting moving on to and off of the harbor) in addition to the 3 extra placements of the lieutenant itself.
 
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Scott Hill
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TheKazz wrote:
Honestly I have got a lot of value out of the lieutenant picking it up as late as turn 6. I was going for warfare and arcana quests and I pulled some shenanigans where I completed the quest that allows you to return some of your agents to your pool while I moved off the last space in waterdeep harbor then played another 3 agents on waterdeep harbor played both intrigue cards that allow you to return agents to your pool then moved all those agents back off waterdeep harbor. And I wouldn't have been able to pull it off without the lieutenant. Obviously you can't count on that happening but I had 1 of the 2 intrigue cards already and picked up the quest from Cliff Watch using the lieutenant the same turn I got it. But it did allow me to place about 6 or so extra agents uninterrupted (counting moving on to and off of the harbor) in addition to the 3 extra placements of the lieutenant itself.
I'd have to check the rules but I'm fairly sure you cannot use the lieutenant in the turn you get him.
 
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Chad Miller
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you can place the Lieutenant the same round since it goes into your pool immediately
 
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Scott Hill
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SlebRittie wrote:
you can place the Lieutenant the same round since it goes into your pool immediately
(Having checked...)

I was thinking of the Ambassador.
 
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Merudo
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SlebRittie wrote:
Generally speaking, the non-plot quests are balanced around the assumption that one agent placement = 4VP.

The problem is that the Lieutenant gives the player an extra agent to play after everyone has done so - by that time, only terrible spaces remain.
 
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