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Subject: Edition without minis? rss

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Geo
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Is there going to be an edition which uses ship cards instead of minis (like the original WoW)?

The system looks nice but i am not into "collectible miniatures" games and certainly i am not going to spend a fortune on a single game...

 
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Steve Duke
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No

Sorry
 
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Tanks Alot
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I sure hope so too!
 
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sduke wrote:
No

Sorry

Then back to Wooden Ships & Iron Men and Flying Colors...
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If you want crew management in your game check out Close Action: The Age of Fighting Sail Vol. 1.
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medlinke wrote:
If you want crew management in your game check out Close Action: The Age of Fighting Sail Vol. 1.

I own it but unfortunately i haven't tried it yet... modest

 
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Steve Duke
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maybe you will be lucky enough to play someone else's copy of this fine game>

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sduke wrote:
maybe you will be lucky enough to play someone else's copy of this fine game>

Unlikely! Not a lot of people around here are willing to spend 300+€ on a collectible game. Most of them were burnt from collectible games over the years (for which they spent A LOT of money and now gather dust in a closet).

 
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Steve Duke
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When you come to BGG con, you can play mine.
 
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GeoMan wrote:
sduke wrote:
maybe you will be lucky enough to play someone else's copy of this fine game>

Unlikely! Not a lot of people around here are willing to spend 300+€ on a collectible game. Most of them were burnt from collectible games over the years (for which they spent A LOT of money and now gather dust in a closet).


Sails of Glory is not collectable. You know exactly what you are going to get when you buy the ship packs. Also, there is absolutely in reason to buy all ships. In fact, just the base set gives you quite a bit of gameplay. That's hardly a €300 investment, more like €70.
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Quote:
Sails of Glory is not collectable. You know exactly what you are going to get when you buy the ship packs. Also, there is absolutely in reason to buy all ships. In fact, just the base set gives you quite a bit of gameplay. That's hardly a €300 investment, more like €70.

+1 agree
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RobertDD wrote:
That's hardly a €300 investment, more like €70.

Come on now! You know how this works! How many people will resist the temptation to buy more ships/spaceships/whatever?

Miniature games - especially expandable or collectible ones - is the "golden cow" of the industry.

That explains the many miniatures games with similar mechanics released in the last years: X-wing, Attack Wing, Wings of Glory/Sails, ... and the heavy "push" they get with constant new releases.

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Andrea Angiolino
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This is not X-Wing. You get 4 ships, 2 per team - not an odd number like three, with people commenting that if you start with two starters and a few more packs it's far better. And you get 6 variated scenarios to play many times with them, even solo to discover rules and train. You get all the chit you need to play and more, not a handful of dice that are not enough every now and then during your game session.

If you want you can buy more ships, but you do not need one.

The family of games you are quoting started, as you well know, with Wings of War and its miniature version. When WoW appeared, collectible games were very popular. With the publisher, we considered making it a collectible game - SPAD biplanes easy to find, Fokker triplanes far less so. Easy to find a non-ace pilot, but Frank Luke uncommon and the Red Baron rare. Double pieces coming often out of packs until you found your favorite piece, or the most powerful one in the game. We unanimously decided not to do that, out of respect for players. I designed the first set in a way that having multiple copies could be useful so that, if in a group of players there is more than one copy (it happens), they are not a waste (same for Sails of Glory now). Not to incentivate multiple buys.

Now yes, you can play Sails of Glory with miniatures for 70$ many times with your friends. And maybe it will be them to buy some more stuff to variate the game, after they try it. But I think that we avoided to propose this game as a money-sucking machine. Then of course, wohever want to invest more in the system can do that, and I hope that it's worth for him.

All IMHO, of course.
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Hmmm... Extra ships, extra terrain packs, extra ship mats, extra game maps and even a separate damage counter bags (for 19€!) and this is not a "money cow"???

Sorry, i don't buy this!

Games like Flying Colors and Close Action: The Age of Fighting Sail Vol. 1 cost around 50€ and offer a HUGE variety allowing LARGE battles without the need to buy extra packs, ships, e.t.c. (but of course without the miniatures).

And speaking about miniatures, it is hard to believe that it is not HUGELY profitable to sell a mini for 16€ when the actual cost to produce it is no more than 2-3€ (made in China)
 
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GeoMan wrote:
Hmmm... Extra ships, extra terrain packs, extra ship mats, extra game maps and even a separate damage counter bag (for 19€!) and this is not a "money cow"???

Sorry, i don't buy this!

Games like Flying Colors and Close Action: The Age of Fighting Sail Vol. 1 cost around 50€ and offer a HUGE variety allowing LARGE battles without the need to buy extra packs, ships, e.t.c. (but of course without the miniatures).

And speaking about miniatures, it is hard to believe that it is not HUGELY profitable to sell a mini for 16€ when the actual cost to produce it is not more of 2-3€ (made in China)

I generally buy board & card games, not miniatures, and seldom buy an expansion. For instance I enjoy Dominion but have never bought beyond the base game even though I'm finally considering Seaside. I enjoy Android: Netrunner and finally bought one expansion but that's the limit of my interest. I do own Attack Wing and two extra ships but have ended purchases there as I wanted to have the game with some variety but with limits on cost and storage room. With Sails of Glory I decided to buy-in because it covers a long-time topic of interest and I bought enough ships that with 4 players everyone could play a couple. When a new ship type comes out, if it catches my interest, I'll probably buy one of the type but not in each color scheme. Sails of Glory is the most expensive game in my closet...a choice I made up front as an informed buyer.

It is certainly reasonable for you to decide not to spend that much money on one game. With over 2,000 games ($60,000+?) in your collection you can certainly make an informed choice. However, it is not reasonable to ask a company to walk away from sales to informed, willing buyers.
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You could easily glue a Flying Colors or Close Action ship counter on top of a ship base card and play without the miniatures. Then you could sell the mini ships on eBay and recoup your investment. Doesn't that sound like an awesome idea!?
 
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Malacandra wrote:
You could easily glue a Flying Colors or Close Action ship counter on top of a ship base card and play without the miniatures. Then you could sell the mini ships on eBay and recoup your investment. Doesn't that sound like an awesome idea!?

Great idea, but there's a small problem: these counters are double-sided, so unfortunately the plan isn't going to work!

So no profit for me... At least i can play all those large scenarios included with these games on the cheap and with the money saved from the minis i can buy 5-10 new games...


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Most all of us own Flying Colors, Serpents of the Seas, Close Action and even Wooden Ships ... but they are no comparison to Sails of Glory, which is awesome!
Sorry you are missing out on it.
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GeoMan wrote:
RobertDD wrote:
That's hardly a €300 investment, more like €70.

Come on now! You know how this works! How many people will resist the temptation to buy more ships/spaceships/whatever?

Miniature games - especially expandable or collectible ones - is the "golden cow" of the industry.

That explains the many miniatures games with similar mechanics released in the last years: X-wing, Attack Wing, Wings of Glory/Sails, ... and the heavy "push" they get with constant new releases.

So trolling the STAW threads was not enough (http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14723198#14723198)? Now you have to come and dump on Sails of Glory as well? These are *miniatures* games. You don't like them, we get it.
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GeoMan wrote:
RobertDD wrote:
That's hardly a €300 investment, more like €70.

Come on now! You know how this works! How many people will resist the temptation to buy more ships/spaceships/whatever?

Miniature games - especially expandable or collectible ones - is the "golden cow" of the industry.

That explains the many miniatures games with similar mechanics released in the last years: X-wing, Attack Wing, Wings of Glory/Sails, ... and the heavy "push" they get with constant new releases.


I think you are conflating the issue here. Miniatures gaming is not the same as a collectible card type game. It is not a "golden cow" but a separate "industry". Many miniatures gamers are in it for the hobby of painting and modeling as well as the game itself. Perhaps you should visit TMP: www.theminiaturespage.com

That might give you a sense of another part of wargaming and this is not some scheme to suck money out of an innocent boardgamer.
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DeRuyter wrote:
...Many miniatures gamers are in it for the hobby of painting and modeling as well as the game itself....

If i am not mistaken the miniatures here are already pre-assembled and pre-painted.

I have nothing against miniatures. I am against the extraordinary prices some companies sell them, compared to the cost of manufacturing.

For example Puppet Wars Unstitched which i bought recently contains 44 very detailed minis offering a lot to assemble, paint and play. And it costs around £45. See?


 
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Steve Duke
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So do you have any expert knowledge of the cost of manufacturing these minis vs what they sell for, or are you just a shit house bathroom lawyer?

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The thing about minis is that there is considerable upfront cost associated with design and manufacture of the various molds needed to cast the ships, as well as the costs related to the engineering of the models themselves (how to kit them out so that they can be cast and assembled as efficiently as possible). People always want to just look at the unit cost to make something once the production line is set up, but you have to consider the often not-insignificant start-up costs for such a production line. Also, given that this game is not going to move a million units, there will be a relatively low number of units made over which to spread those fixed initial investment costs.
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sduke wrote:
So do you have any expert knowledge of the cost of manufacturing these minis vs what they sell for, or are you just a shit house bathroom lawyer?

LOL! +1thumbsup...I think we know the answer to that...sploosh!
 
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desertfox2004 wrote:
The thing about minis is that there is considerable upfront cost associated with design and manufacture of the various molds needed to cast the ships, as well as the costs related to the engineering of the models themselves (how to kit them out so that they can be cast and assembled as efficiently as possible). People always want to just look at the unit cost to make something once the production line is set up, but you have to consider the often not-insignificant start-up costs for such a production line. Also, given that this game is not going to move a million units, there will be a relatively low number of units made over which to spread those fixed initial investment costs.
Don't waste your time trying to talk sense to someone who plays with his puppet...
 
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