Donny Schuijers
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Hello partypeople,

Me and my girlfriend just started playing the third set and we find it really hard to defeat Mama. We think we're playing it wrong, so I would like your advice.

The scenario says that any defeated henchman are added to the scenario as an extra +1 difficulity to defeat Mama.

1) Do the summoned Ancient Skeletons count as a +1 too after you defeat them before fighting Mama?
2) If you encounter a Monster In The Closet (or any other summoning barrier) are these added to the +1 too?

Thanks in advance, guys! :D
 
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Craig S.
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SpiritReacher wrote:
Hello partypeople,

Me and my girlfriend just started playing the third set and we find it really hard to defeat Mama. We think we're playing it wrong, so I would like your advice.

The scenario says that any defeated henchman are added to the scenario as an extra +1 difficulity to defeat Mama.

1) Do the summoned Ancient Skeletons count as a +1 too after you defeat them before fighting Mama?
2) If you encounter a Monster In The Closet (or any other summoning barrier) are these added to the +1 too?

Thanks in advance, guys!

Summoned cards do not ever go anywhere but back to the box after the encounter.
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D P
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Normally, I'd say the old 'All summoned cards are returned to the box after being dealt with,' however, the new V3 rules do state

"After evading or resolving all checks against a summoned card,
banish it unless you’re instructed otherwise."

The scenario card states that henchman are added to the scenario after being defeated, which is being 'instructed otherwise.'

So in this instance, I'd say that even though the card is summoned, it'd go with the Scenario.

To this:
csouth154 wrote:
SpiritReacher wrote:
[...]

Summoned cards do not ever go anywhere but back to the box after the encounter.
That response is for the FAQ question concerning summoned cards going to location decks because of other effects.

FAQ wrote:
Do summoned cards ever get returned to location decks?

No. Summoned cards don't come out of location decks, so they can't return to them—they always get banished to the box when you're done with them.

Resolution: On page 13 of the rulebook, add the following after the sentence "If the summoned card is a villain or henchman, defeating it does not allow you to close a location or win the scenario—ignore any such text on those cards":

"Summoned cards are not part of any location deck."
And that has been added to the V3 rulebook.
 
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Craig S.
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firedale2002 wrote:
Normally, I'd say the old 'All summoned cards are returned to the box after being dealt with,' however, the new V3 rules do state

"After evading or resolving all checks against a summoned card,
banish it unless you’re instructed otherwise."

The scenario card states that henchman are added to the scenario after being defeated, which is being 'instructed otherwise.'

So in this instance, I'd say that even though the card is summoned, it'd go with the Scenario.

To this:
csouth154 wrote:
SpiritReacher wrote:
[...]

Summoned cards do not ever go anywhere but back to the box after the encounter.
That response is for the FAQ question concerning summoned cards going to location decks because of other effects.

FAQ wrote:
Do summoned cards ever get returned to location decks?

No. Summoned cards don't come out of location decks, so they can't return to them—they always get banished to the box when you're done with them.

Resolution: On page 13 of the rulebook, add the following after the sentence "If the summoned card is a villain or henchman, defeating it does not allow you to close a location or win the scenario—ignore any such text on those cards":

"Summoned cards are not part of any location deck."
And that has been added to the V3 rulebook.

Didn't the scenario rule in question receive errata to the effect that only defeated henchmen from a location deck should be placed under the card and contribute to Mammy's difficulty? Or am I just going crazy?
 
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csouth154 wrote:
[...]
Didn't the scenario rule in question receive errata to the effect that only defeated henchmen from a location deck should be placed under the card and contribute to Mammy's difficulty? Or am I just going crazy?
I cannot find any reference to it having been changed in the FAQ/Errata.
 
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Andrew Warner
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The "instructed otherwise" reference in the rulebook means that unless something instructs you to do something different by particularly referencing what to do with "summoned cards" or that particular card by name. Them Ogres Ain't Right doesn't specifically mention summoned cards, so it isn't instructing you to do otherwise. (Some of that knowledge comes from S&S playtest.)

As for the specific question at hand, that it is only the henchman in the location decks and no any summoned henchman from Mammy or from barriers is confirmed here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgzb?Them-Ogres-Aint-Right-and-...

Also note that Mike mentions that as the only reason you don't loose every time, so that explains why you lost everytime.
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269Hawkmoon wrote:
The "instructed otherwise" reference in the rulebook means that unless something instructs you to do something different by particularly referencing what to do with "summoned cards" or that particular card by name. Them Ogres Ain't Right doesn't specifically mention summoned cards, so it isn't instructing you to do otherwise. (Some of that knowledge comes from S&S playtest.)

As for the specific question at hand, that it is only the henchman in the location decks and no any summoned henchman from Mammy or from barriers is confirmed here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgzb?Them-Ogres-Aint-Right-and-...

Also note that Mike mentions that as the only reason you don't loose every time, so that explains why you lost everytime.
First, it does specifically reference those cards because it specifically references defeated henchmen. It doesn't specifically reference non-summoned defeated henchmen, therefore it's a blanket reference of all defeated henchmen.

Not everyone has access to the S&S playtest documentation, testing results, or rules discussions, so using that information as a basis doesn't really help much, but the knowledge that it's there means hopefully a FAQ/Errata update will come soon concerning this.

That being said, I'm fine with the thread you posted, however, those rulings were made more than half a month ago yet a FAQ/Errata wasn't made outside of that thread. Added on top of that, a new version of the rulebook (V3) has come out, also leaving it up to 'unless instructed otherwise.' (That 'cannot go anywhere except back to the box' didn't make it into the FAQ/Errata nor did it make it into the rules even after that discussion, so it seems to me it was pointedly left out.)

I suppose the thread will have to do somewhat as an official response, but it really needs to be errata'd if this instance of 'instructed otherwise' doesn't count as 'instructed otherwise.' Otherwise, things are just going to get more confusing down the road when another thing like this happens.

If you're driving a car and are told to turn left unless instructed otherwise, then you turn left... and when someone says to turn right, then you normally turn right at the next turn, then continue turning left again after that. They don't have to say 'instead of turning left, turn right'.

It's a given that being told a different set of directions to follow overwrites the default directions to follow, especially if the default directions to follow include the directions that you may be instructed to do something else, and you should do the something else then.
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Andrew Warner
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firedale2002 wrote:
269Hawkmoon wrote:
The "instructed otherwise" reference in the rulebook means that unless something instructs you to do something different by particularly referencing what to do with "summoned cards" or that particular card by name. Them Ogres Ain't Right doesn't specifically mention summoned cards, so it isn't instructing you to do otherwise. (Some of that knowledge comes from S&S playtest.)

As for the specific question at hand, that it is only the henchman in the location decks and no any summoned henchman from Mammy or from barriers is confirmed here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgzb?Them-Ogres-Aint-Right-and-...

Also note that Mike mentions that as the only reason you don't loose every time, so that explains why you lost everytime.
I'm fine with all of that, however, those rulings were made more than half a month ago yet a FAQ/Errata wasn't made outside of that thread. On top of that, a new version of the rulebook (V3) has come out, also leaving it up to 'unless instructed otherwise.'

I suppose the thread will have to do as an official response, but it really should be errata'd if this instance of 'instructed otherwise' doesn't count as 'instructed otherwise.'

If you're driving a car and are told to turn left unless instructed otherwise, then you turn left... and when someone says to turn right, then you normally turn right at the next turn, then continue turning left again after that. They don't have to say 'instead of turning left, turn right'.

It's a given that being told a different set of directions to follow overwrites the default directions to follow, especially if the default directions to follow include the directions that you may be instructed to do something else, and you should do the something else then.
I understand. And you might want to raise that point over at Paizo. Maybe even on that thread about this scenario.

What I was trying to say (and maybe did a poor job with it) is that (and I know this isn't something everyone has seen) when you are instructed otherwise with a summoned card, it will specifically say "summoned card". Like "If undefeated, place the summoned monster on a random open location deck." Or if the scenario had instructed you to after closing the first location to summon and encounter the card Hawkmoon269 for some reason and after the encounter put it in a random location. Those kind of instances either use the specific term "summon" or reference the summoned card by specific name.

But I totally see why "instructed otherwise" could be hard to interpret, without having seen an actual case of being instructed otherwise. So I do really think you should raise your concern over at Paizo. I'm sure they will appreciate the feedback. Perhaps they will decide they should clarify in the rulebook that being instructed otherwise for summoned cards must either include specific reference to summoned cards or the card by name.
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Christopher Dodge
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My son and I just played this scenario last night and we only included the henchmen from the location decks in Mammys total. I agree that the scenario card isn't specific enough but I think that, ultimately, Paizo will come out saying that only henchmen that are found in the location decks are added.

When we played Mammy was up to a 24 and we were down to two cards in the timer deck when we finally beat her for the second time ("The first time in this scenario that anyone would defeat Mammy Graul, she is undefeated.") so she was VERY tough.

I think what is happening here is Mammy has the ability to summon the dead, so she summons the Ancient Skeleton Henchmen when attacked. Once they are defeated they crumble to the earth and disappear (go back in the box like all summoned monsters). She couldn't care less about them. But when one of her own "kin" (henchmen from the other location decks) are killed she get enraged and is more difficult to kill. At least that's the way I see it.
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Craig S.
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14cross wrote:
My son and I just played this scenario last night and we only included the henchmen from the location decks in Mammys total. I agree that the scenario card isn't specific enough but I think that, ultimately, Paizo will come out saying that only henchmen that are found in the location decks are added.

When we played Mammy was up to a 24 and we were down to two cards in the timer deck when we finally beat her for the second time ("The first time in this scenario that anyone would defeat Mammy Graul, she is undefeated.") so she was VERY tough.

I think what is happening here is Mammy has the ability to summon the dead, so she summons the Ancient Skeleton Henchmen when attacked. Once they are defeated they crumble to the earth and disappear (go back in the box like all summoned monsters). She couldn't care less about them. But when one of her own "kin" (henchmen from the other location decks) are killed she get enraged and is more difficult to kill. At least that's the way I see it.

I think the lore behind it is that Mammy is actually raising her sons from the dead to fight for her.
 
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Lars Enden
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269Hawkmoon wrote:
The "instructed otherwise" reference in the rulebook means that unless something instructs you to do something different by particularly referencing what to do with "summoned cards" or that particular card by name. Them Ogres Ain't Right doesn't specifically mention summoned cards, so it isn't instructing you to do otherwise. (Some of that knowledge comes from S&S playtest.)

As for the specific question at hand, that it is only the henchman in the location decks and no any summoned henchman from Mammy or from barriers is confirmed here:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgzb?Them-Ogres-Aint-Right-and-...

Also note that Mike mentions that as the only reason you don't loose every time, so that explains why you lost everytime.

You've got to be kidding. Both Lem and Harsk are dead because I understood the scenario card as "stating otherwise". I won't harp again on the ambiguities in this game, but I think it is very unlikely that there are more than a handful of people who actually know how to play this game. There is no chance that someone with just the rule book is going to get this game right without extensive research. I feel that I know this game very well, but I still keep finding out that I don't. With any other game, this wouldn't be a big deal: I would just say, "oh well, I'll just change the way I play from now on," but when I find that I have been playing a rule incorrectly with PACG, I feel like I have to start again from scratch as each scenario has an impact on subsequent scenarios.

However I should also say that this is my favorite game of all time, so considering how screwed up the rules are, I think this game must be a work of incredible genius.
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Trevor S.
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brayle wrote:

However I should also say that this is my favorite game of all time, so considering how screwed up the rules are, I think this game must be a work of incredible genius.

I believe that a lot was learned with this first set. The fact that everything was created ahead of time also means that those early mistakes are with us until the next set. I'm very hopeful that the game's ambiguities will get cleaned up, especially when the designer is so active on the forums and players like Hawkmoon269 exist.

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Ess Why
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Was there ever an official answer on this?

I just played this and was adding the skeleton henchmen to Mama Graul. She was up to a check of 25 and I got owned.
 
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Andrew Warner
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The thread I linked above is the official answer.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgzb?Them-Ogres-Aint-Right-and-...

The only henchmen that add to Mammy Graul are the ones you put in the locations when setting up the scenario. Summoned henchman go back in the box.
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Ess Why
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Thanks!

269Hawkmoon wrote:
The thread I linked above is the official answer.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qgzb?Them-Ogres-Aint-Right-and-...

The only henchmen that add to Mammy Graul are the ones you put in the locations when setting up the scenario. Summoned henchman go back in the box.
 
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