Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
32 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Android: Netrunner» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Hard at Work vs Kati Jones rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
John Meindersee II
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
*If this is a duplicate thread, I apologize.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I often look to include uncommonly used cards that have potential in decks. So, when needing some more econ in my Noise deck I looked at Hard at Work.

At first it seemed like a similar rate of return (RoR) as Kati Jones, in that three clicks (turns) will provide 6 creds each. I also liked the tempo gain of HaW of getting those creds every turn. I was prepared to start running HaW and have this be my central piece of econ and late game method of creds.

However, I then noticed the cost of each of those cards. Kati costs 2 and HaW costs 5. That's killer. After six turns with each of those cards Kati will net you (gaining 6 creds every three turns, which is the most efficient and consistent way to use Kati in my deck) 10 creds, while HaW only nets you 5 creds (we are counting the turn you install each resources, where you can still click Kati, but HaW doesn't "click" until next turn.

Kati is the hands down winner here and HaW seems to be a broken card (in the worst way). I might consider HaW if it costs 3 creds, but at this point it provides almost no benefit compared to Kati.

Did FFG miss something here in costing this card? Other factions would never spend 2 infl when they can spend 0 on Kati, and even an Anarch has no reason to run HaW. Too bad, really.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sam Suied
msg tools
mb
hard at work is just bad (previously discussed to death), also don't empty your kati until it gets to 9-12, it works out much better
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Falko Sieverding
Germany
Rees
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hard at Work will get its playtime in Draft or for lazy plyers, that want no decisions on their turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bob Bobberson
msg tools
Avatar
God, why does Hard at Work cost 5 instead of 3? It's clearly inferior to Wyldeside.

(Any by God I mean FFG)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lysander
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
I wouldn't consider using it unless it cost no more than 1 to install.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tarquelne
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Lysander1 wrote:
I wouldn't consider using it unless it cost no more than 1 to install.

My A:NR group realized that if you squint *really hard*, it looks like it says cost 1 rather than 5, so that's how we play it.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Meindersee II
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
SamRS wrote:
hard at work is just bad (previously discussed to death), also don't empty your kati until it gets to 9-12, it works out much better
Here is the breakdown of reward ratios for Kati:

3 creds on Kati; 2 clicks; 1.5 creds/per/click (cpc)
6 creds on Kati; 3 clicks; 2 cpc
9 creds on Kati; 4 clicks; 2.25 cpc
12 creds on Kati; 5 clicks; 2.4 cpc
15 creds on Kati; 6 clicks; 2.5 cpc
18 creds on Kati; 7 clicks; 2.57 cpc

Classic case of diminishing returns here. I could justify 9 creds on Kati, but not 12. Especially with my Noise deck, it doesn't need huge burst. If I have 4-6 creds in my bankroll then I'm good to go.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frederic Bush
United States
Narberth
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
JohnnyCreations wrote:
SamRS wrote:
hard at work is just bad (previously discussed to death), also don't empty your kati until it gets to 9-12, it works out much better
Here is the breakdown of reward ratios for Kati:

3 creds on Kati; 2 clicks; 1.5 creds/per/click (cpc)
6 creds on Kati; 3 clicks; 2 cpc
9 creds on Kati; 4 clicks; 2.25 cpc
12 creds on Kati; 5 clicks; 2.4 cpc
15 creds on Kati; 6 clicks; 2.5 cpc
18 creds on Kati; 7 clicks; 2.57 cpc

Classic case of diminishing returns here. I could justify 9 creds on Kati, but not 12. Especially with my Noise deck, it doesn't need huge burst. If I have 4-6 creds in my bankroll then I'm good to go.

You should be looking at marginal credits per click, not average. Once you've installed and started clicking Kati, that's sunk cost. Every other click that you manage before you drain her is 3 creds.

The table is worthwhile to decide whether or not to include Kati in your deck vs other forms of economy, but once she's installed that's not a useful way to think about it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Meindersee II
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
fbush555 wrote:
You should be looking at marginal credits per click, not average. Once you've installed and started clicking Kati, that's sunk cost. Every other click that you manage before you drain her is 3 creds.

The table is worthwhile to decide whether or not to include Kati in your deck vs other forms of economy, but once she's installed that's not a useful way to think about it.
I get what you are saying, but I'm looking to find the most efficient way to create credits throughout the game. If I commit to a cycle of clicking Kati twice, and then taking the 6 creds throughout the game, then I'm creating an efficient credit engine, which is what I am trying to create with my Anarch deck.

Even with other factions, I've too often tried to load up Kati "with just three extra creds" only to lose my opportunity to strike when the corp wasn't expecting it. When 9 or 12 creds are sitting on Kati, the corp is expecting something crazy, but with 3 or 6 they may leave themselves open b/c they don't expect you to use her.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott West
Canada
BC
flag msg tools
mbmb
fbush555 wrote:
JohnnyCreations wrote:
SamRS wrote:
hard at work is just bad (previously discussed to death), also don't empty your kati until it gets to 9-12, it works out much better
Here is the breakdown of reward ratios for Kati:

3 creds on Kati; 2 clicks; 1.5 creds/per/click (cpc)
6 creds on Kati; 3 clicks; 2 cpc
9 creds on Kati; 4 clicks; 2.25 cpc
12 creds on Kati; 5 clicks; 2.4 cpc
15 creds on Kati; 6 clicks; 2.5 cpc
18 creds on Kati; 7 clicks; 2.57 cpc

Classic case of diminishing returns here. I could justify 9 creds on Kati, but not 12. Especially with my Noise deck, it doesn't need huge burst. If I have 4-6 creds in my bankroll then I'm good to go.

You should be looking at marginal credits per click, not average. Once you've installed and started clicking Kati, that's sunk cost. Every other click that you manage before you drain her is 3 creds.

The table is worthwhile to decide whether or not to include Kati in your deck vs other forms of economy, but once she's installed that's not a useful way to think about it.

I had replied here with a pretty little spreadsheet showing (incorrectly) how HaW wasn't terrible. Then I checked my math. So umm....fail?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roberta Yang
msg tools
If you install Hard at Work turn 1, then by turn 12 it will finally have made you more money than a lone Armitage or a lone Daily Casts would. That's assuming that you must click Armitage exactly once per turn, that once Armitage is used up (or if you're using Daily Casts) you must click for a single credit once per turn, and that you don't mind the insane tempo loss of burning all your credits at the very start of the game.

Hard at Work is to econ what Salvage is to ice.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nushura
United States
Boston
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Comparing HaW with Kati Jones and/or Armitage are wrong comparisons. These cards are designed to get the money in bursts or when you need it (and properly do their job, I have to say)....whereas HaW is a drip economy card.

Let's compare HaW to nothing at all (that is, one card less in your stack). If you count the clicks needed to draw and play HaW as well as the installation cost, we conclude that HaW will only provide more credits 8 rounds after it has been installed.

Now, the other regular drip economy card that runner has is Daily Casts. It is another resource and gives the same number of credits per turn. The 4 turns following the installation of Daily Casts provide the same benefit as HaW. If you count the 2 credits difference, HaW will only be useful 7 turns after it has been installed...and that is assuming that you spend the additional clicks from Daily Casts dancing a cha cha!

I you use the extra clicks to get a credit, the difference is much higher, and HaW only gives more credits at the 11th turn after the installation.

That is, even in the best of comparisons HaW is an investment that only returns after 7 turns. I read somewhere that most games roughly last from 10 (if playing against a fast advance) to 15 turns (for a big ICE deck). Hence, this card becomes a dead draw if you draw it halfway through the game.

Note that robustness is not an argument that can be said to defend this card either. Any corporation card that destroys HaW can destroy Daily Casts. Also, if done before the 8th turn, its destruction will do more damage to the runner (compared to the destruction of Daily Casts).

And of course there is the influence drawback for non-criminals. Which brings it to a lot of drawback and no benefit of playing this card....so there is no reason why you should play this card.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roberta Yang
msg tools
Nushura wrote:
Comparing HaW with Kati Jones and/or Armitage are wrong comparisons. These cards are designed to get the money in bursts or when you need it (and properly do their job, I have to say)....whereas HaW is a drip economy card.
If the burst economy card used as if it were a drip economy card is a better drip economy card than the actual drip economy card, then that says a lot about how well the drip economy card does its job.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nushura
United States
Boston
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
salty53 wrote:
Nushura wrote:
Comparing HaW with Kati Jones and/or Armitage are wrong comparisons. These cards are designed to get the money in bursts or when you need it (and properly do their job, I have to say)....whereas HaW is a drip economy card.
If the burst economy card used as if it were a drip economy card is a better drip economy card than the actual drip economy card, then that says a lot about how well the drip economy card does its job.

Clearly I agree. If you read my post, I do not make a proper comparison with a real drip card (i.e., I compare it with no card at all, or using a card and not using the extra clicks). I just think that comparing to Armitage is as bad comparison as comparing it to a corp drip card (say, PAD Campaign).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ber -
Australia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Next time someone manages to secure an interview with Lukas, I'd love it if they asked him what the idea was when they created Hard at Work. It's just strictly worse than many other neutral econ cards that already existed before it. It's unprecedented for ANR to have such a bad card printed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Rockwell
United States
Lynnwood
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yup, yet another Hard at Work thread!


http://forum.stimhack.com/t/the-data-hound-hypothesis/342
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nushura
United States
Boston
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Alexfrog wrote:

I am sorry, but I do not buy this hypothesis. Counterexamples are TWIY. This is a good identity, but it has a lot of discussion on whether or not it is good (http://www.cardgamedb.com/index.php/netrunner/android-netrun...). What about power shutdown? Or Desperado vs Doppleganger?

Likewise, I do not think I ever saw someone defending "Starlight Crusade Funding" or "Activist Support"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ludovic Gauthier
France
flag msg tools
Nushura wrote:

Likewise, I do not think I ever saw someone defending "Starlight Crusade Funding" or "Activist Support"
Tuism is pro at defending things like that
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Tu
South Africa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NetEldrogo wrote:
Nushura wrote:

Likewise, I do not think I ever saw someone defending "Starlight Crusade Funding" or "Activist Support"
Tuism is pro at defending things like that

Sorry what?

I have NO DEFENCE for Starlight Crusade Funding, sorry I've had enough of Aesops theorists for long, long time

And Activist support can only be comboed with NACH for one bad pub... Right now corp decks either don't care about bad pub (end up with 3 or 4 comfortable) or they can just decide not to give you one if you don't have NACH.

So... Sorry, you gonna have to look elsewhere for a champion of the weak... At least, *those* weak
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wabi Sabi Will

Oregon
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hard at Work is a troll card.

You're all Hard at Work trying to figure out what's good about it.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sebastian Barth
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
photogasm wrote:
Hard at Work is a troll card.

You're all Hard at Work trying to figure out what's good about it.
FFG 1 - BGG 0
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Keddie
Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
photogasm wrote:
Hard at Work is a troll card.

You're all Hard at Work trying to figure out what's good about it.

I still cling to some weird hope that somehow, in the future, FFG will redeem this card.

As it stands it's just awful.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grish Noren
msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
"Worst" Combo Ever:

1) Wyldside (+2 cards)
2) Hard At Work (+$2)
3) Hard At Work (+$2)
4) Hard At Work (+$2)
5) Starlight Commission (Gravy really because now you're out of clicks, you don't have to spend 2 to play a double)
6) Joshua B (Now you have a click, and eventually a tag.)

Assuming all of this gets out and your opponent doesn't trash Joshua B. It's not that bad.

But from this point of view, anything that asks you to lose a click at the beginning of your turn from this point on causes each of these cards to gain value... maybe?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Redston
Israel
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
HaW should really have been priced at 2c or gave you 3c each turn.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gin Teki
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mb
Hard at Work is the best resource to have while tagged. I think that is its main purpose. Who is going to trash it, after all? So if your game plan involves being tagged often, it serves.
It's still goddamn awful.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   |