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Subject: The Stretch Goal Question rss

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Billy Raby
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Let me start by saying I am not bashing the game in any way, and I think the idea is both creative and seems like it will be fun. I backed it a few days ago. But I was curious about Stretch Goals for a game such as this.

It seems that not only the cards art has been finalized for the stretch goals, but I believe I have even spied some of the stretch goal cards in the Prototype versions that went to early previewers. Are these really stretch goals, or are they a marketing tactic to drum up more supporters.

If the game would have funded, do you think we would have seen these cards just thrown to the wayside, or would they have showed up in an expansion of sorts? Do you think these cards were really NEVER intended to go in the base game?

Not interested in an argument, more of an over all discussion on Stretch Goals in general and how you think they should be done.

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Brian Lombard
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I noticed the same thing. Here are my thoughts on the matter.

It is possible that in order to keep the base game at a certain price level, that they started with a set amount of cards that would be included in the game.

As the funding increases I think it makes it feasible for them to add in these extra cards (the more cards that need to be mass printed would increase the price I'm assuming).

I believe that the cards, should they not have met their stretch goals, would show up in an expansion, like the Extra, Extra! expansion so-to-speak.

Now this is simply my take on a possible reason and since I am in no way involved with the game's development or in direct contact with the creators, I don't know this to be their reasoning.
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Chris Byer
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This was addressed in an update but for the life of me I can't remember which one, but it was something along the lines of what Brian stated.
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Travis R. Chance
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Hi, guys!

Good questions. Allow me to answer:

We had art made for cards like Dino and Giant, sent these out with reviews and used them in testing, but we had to narrow down the card manifest to keep our pricing on point, as well as keep more complex cards like Giant for later content.

No deception was intended on our part. We sent out cards without art as well to reviewers, but we didn't want these to be shown. So we included some of these, which, in hindsight we should have been much more clear about this.

The thing we want to remind our backers is that, yes, a few cards were spoiled in reviews, BUT additional cards are being added for each stretch goal we pass. For example, the game initially was only coming with 20 hero A cards and 24 hero B cards. Currently those number are 6 additional A and B cards (for a total of 12 more just for heroes). After Dino Cop, each and every card we have unlocked has not been shown. We have always had a list of what cards would be stretch goals during pre-planning, but we understand people wanting cards that no one has seen yet. Do forgive any doubts this may have caused. We hope that the other aspects of our project make up for this oversight.
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Joel Wright
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I think now a days if you are going to put a board game on kick-starter you would a couple stretch goals in mind, i know i would if i was to do a project but i not.

I back this game straight after seeing Dan Kings preview and didn't notice the cards if he did show any stretch goal cards, but when someone pointed it out on the comments it didn't bother me, i was just happy that is has funded so quickly and stretch goals are unlocking left, right and centre. and now they are raising lots of funds you can the creators are now frankly try to come up with new ideas to add. and thats great for the game. the more that happens with the game the more people talk about it, the more PR the game gets.

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Billy Raby
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I didn't feel deceived in any way. I was more curious than anything. Thanks for the explanation. It's always intereSting to see how the behind the scenes works for everything.

And I have greatly enjoyed my phone going off 4 times a day telling me we unlocked a new hero or villain!
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Brian Lombard
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Thanks for the reply. I was pretty sure that was the case. You guys are doing a great job with the Kickstarter and I can't wait to see us blow through all the stretch goals. Basically because I want more awesome stuff!!
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JT Schiavo
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Rubber Professor was already on the stretch goal image and Dino Cop was already on one of the section headers when the project launched. I'm pretty sure they intended for them to be part of the game, but production costs are a limiting factor.

When producing cards there are two primary costs. 1) Production, 2) Art. Obviously the art costs on these cards have already been at least partially paid if they were sent out to reviewers, but that doesn't mean that Art is free. And card production cards tend to go up in batches depending on the sheet size the manufacture uses. If it's printed on standard 54 card sheets, there is a significant cost increase going from 54 to 55 cards, but little to no production cost increase going from 55 to 108.

On the flip side, I really don't mind at all that these cards were planned as stretch goals. Sure, we all want everything for free, up front and right away, but I'm glad that these new cards have already been conceptualized and playtested. With the very short turnaround between funding and printing, I want the components to be as playtested as possible. I doesn't matter quite as much with villains, as everyone experiences the villain at the same time and different games can be easier or harder... But I can only imagine how much people would complain if these new stretch goal heroes were not playtested and properly balanced from a gameplay point of view. "Why'd you bother to add Millionaire when his abilities are obviously inferior to Foot?"
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Chris Byer
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crinaya wrote:
"Why'd you bother to add Cactus when his abilities are obviously inferior to Cop?"


Is that a hypothetical ranter?

Cactus is a villain.
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JT Schiavo
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chbyer wrote:
crinaya wrote:
"Why'd you bother to add Cactus when his abilities are obviously inferior to Cop?"


Is that a hypothetical ranter?

Cactus is a villain.


Good catch, but yeah, I was going hypothetical before I was really awake.

Allow me to revise!

"Why'd you bother to add Millionaire when his abilities are obviously inferior to Foot?"
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Travis R. Chance
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crinaya wrote:
chbyer wrote:
crinaya wrote:
"Why'd you bother to add Cactus when his abilities are obviously inferior to Cop?"


Is that a hypothetical ranter?

Cactus is a villain.


Good catch, but yeah, I was going hypothetical before I was really awake.

Allow me to revise!

"Why'd you bother to add Millionaire when his abilities are obviously inferior to Foot?"


I don't think Foot is superior at all to Millionaire, in truth. Millionaire has a lot of versatility, straight scoring, and there are plenty of villains that will pick on the 1st hero (and a few other heroes). In a vacuum, sure, but remember, you don't know what their special and epic card is (tech has awesome actions with TONS of utility).
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JT Schiavo
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Action Phase wrote:
I don't think Foot is superior at all to Millionaire, in truth. Millionaire has a lot of versatility, straight scoring, and there are plenty of villains that will pick on the 1st hero (and a few other heroes). In a vacuum, sure, but remember, you don't know what their special and epic card is (tech has awesome actions with TONS of utility).


Oh, I'm not saying they aren't balanced. I know that tech vs. mutant both have different advantages, and that certain abilities will support or punish different heroes and playstyles. I was just offering an argument that I feel players would make if you guys didn't have attention to detail in regards to that.

What I was really trying to say is that I don't mind the stretch goal heroes that were "saved" for stretch goals, even the ones that we've already seen from previewers, because if they are that far alone in production you can be quite sure that they've been adequately playtested.
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Travis R. Chance
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Totally. Indeed, we have a very strong understanding of power level for the game. Sure it took us year, but the cards are as close in power as possible. Some cater to more specific strategies (moreso B cards), as you can always pick from three.

So did anyone notice you can be Barefoot Foot in the game?
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JT Schiavo
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You can also make Hobo Millionaire.
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Travis R. Chance
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I am such a nerd for the redundant names like Giant Giant. Gets me every time, like they have the worst PR person working for them possible.
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JT Schiavo
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If Robo makes it in the poll, you can have Robo Bot.
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Travis R. Chance
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crinaya wrote:
If Robo makes it in the poll, you can have Robo Bot.


O.

M.

G.
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JT Schiavo
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Robo Bot and Robo Machine, it would seem.
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Billy Raby
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Coincidentally, "Hypothetical" would make a pretty great one as well.

Look up in the sky!! It's Hypothetical Millionaire??
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Travis R. Chance
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HA!
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Brian Geringer
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Why would this bother people?

Would you rather the game designer say, "Wow! Our game is funding better than we expected!! We better think up some new cards, and quick!"

I'd rather the designers have everything planned out deep into possible stretch goals with art and materials ready to go.

PonSquared, the "Octo-Square" Hero
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Billy Raby
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Who said it bothered anyone? I was curious and wanted a discussion.

Although I was up until the witching hour for days pouring over text and tomes just to find out why someone would do this to their backers. Such pain. Such bother!

I fear I shall never sleep again.

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Stewart Falconer

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I am a bit curious about what the game upgrade goal will add. better card stock? upgraded meeples? I was pleased to see the weekend activity to keep people involved.
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Major Havok
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I would prefer most of the stretch goals have been fleshed out to a great degree before the Kickstarter project ever gets started. I always worry a little when designers react too much to backers and/or invent things in the act of closing out a KS project.
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Travis R. Chance
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Major,

We will not be reacting in this way. Designing things like quirks in a matter of weeks, after a year working on this, comes with quality control, don't you worry.

We will not provide untested content for this game. Please see our stance on not adding scenarios, which people have clamored for since we began last week. So far, War Punk, and two quirks have been added that were tested in the last few weeks, and this is using vectors we know very well.
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