Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
24 Posts

Android: Netrunner» Forums » Strategy

Subject: MMC vs Alix in HB Glacier rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Michael Redston
Israel
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Due to the nature of the deck (NEXT Design with 24+ ICE) there really isn't room for more that one playset of an ecnomoy card (other than Hedge Fund). What I'd like to know is which is better- Melange Mining Corp or Alix T4LB07? The gist of the deck is to make R&D, HQ and a single remote fortresses with layers upon layers of ICE. The idea, if using MMC, is to get paid by it behind an ICE glacier until the runner trashes it and then starting to advance and score agendas (in the traditional, non-FA way). The advantage of Alix over MMC is while you build your glaciers she she gets richer and richer until you finally cash her. The disatvantage is that she can be trashed before you do... So, any experienced NEXT Design players willing to chip in?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sebastian Barth
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
Honestly, with that strategy you describe I would just play HB:Engineering the Future and play the Melange. Late game win condition? One turn Melange, one turn Biotic Labor, one turn Archived Memories for Biotic Labor, pretty old-school but also strong.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Blake Burkhead
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mb
It depends on what the card is doing for you. It is even better bait than mining corp, think of it like an overloaded katey when you have a "tag them" card in hand. If you need the 7 boost for rezzing cards stick with the MMC, if you can use it as a "it's money if I can get it" card go with Alix. Alix is going to play better into your over all strategy, but will be useless if you can't take the tempo hit of never getting its credits.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J F
msg tools
I'd say they are both reasonable to put in, though more from a strategy standpoint. The question (I'd say at least) is more to do with your ice strength. It's pointless forcing the runner to trash it if you don't rez the ice in front of it to cost the runner just that bit more. If you have reasonable amounts of cheap ice alix is going to be better because you can leave it a couple turns and still rez the ice in front, whereas you may need that one turn of melange to get your ice off the ground. Though that aside, the big question is how badly you need those clicks. MMC, while incredibly efficient, is incredibly inflexible which doesn't always work as well with HB big ice decks unless they have a ton of ice down already they just need the credits to rez.

On a side note (and sorry for the long reply) have you considered eve campaign? HB big ice decks are about winning the economy war and you need high trash cost assets to do that in the long term. I used to run a ETF deck that ran 3x Pad campaign, 3x marked accounts and 3x eve campaign along with about 26 pieces of ice and the runner was constantly bankrupting themselves trying to keep my economy low, except whizzard who was a bit more annoying, but having a couple one ice assets servers were generally enough to cause him problems. Plus, with alix and MMC if the runner sees it in RnD you're going to have really big problems as they will always pay the 1 and 2 credits to traash alix and MMC if able.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Redston
Israel
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't mind long replies at all! Keep them coming! And please, share me your secret on to how you managed to find slots of 9 economy assets while still having space for 26 ICE, agendas and Hedge Funds (which I would think it's a must in order to rez those Eves in the first place). I would LOVE to have my economy cosist of 3xEve, 3xAdonis and 3xRex but cannot find room anywhere. How do you do it?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacek Wieszaczewski
Poland
Wrocław
Poland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
26 ice, 11 agendas, 3 Hedge Funds and 9 econ assets adds up to a 49-card deck And, while Hedge Funds are nice to rez Eve, you don't need them at all to rez PAD, Rex or Marked Accounts.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Yi Sheng Siow
msg tools
why play a weak identity?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J F
msg tools
Fairly easily, it was a very focussed deck. If I remember correctly it was something like:
26 ice
10 agendas (2 points apiece)
2 biotic labors
10 economy cards
1 aggsec
49 cards total
This was before jackson howards came out, so he'd neede to fit in there to combo with ABT, but the concept was pretty much that.

Only thing to keep in mind is that big ice decks can have trouble early game. Also, you can't keep the runner out forever and the longer the game goes on the more accesses, thus the need to run assets as another avenue for the runner to spend their clicks and credits. Plus if your in a tournament you don't want to go to time.

Honestly though, I agree with sirprim above in that you should probably be doing this with ETF. Unless there's something your trying to push out early, like an ABT or prior.req. on an odin/janus, the longer the game goes on the less powerful your identity is going to be. NEXT design makes great rush decks (due to the immediate click advantage at the start), CI & ST make good FA decks (they both benefit from focussing on icing centrals and making runns either unfruitful or expensive), but if your look for ice towers ETF will always be your best bet within HB.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Blake Burkhead
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mb
siowy wrote:
why play a weak identity?

Personal challange? Surprise factor? Attempting to be the first to break the meta box on something the pack has ignored? Just to have some fun? Lots of reasons.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Nordeng
United States
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kroen, have a deck list?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Redston
Israel
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nords3x4 wrote:
Kroen, have a deck list?
Yeah, originally I had a 45 card deck with 25 ICE that only used MMC/Alix for economy. Reading through the replies here made me want to do a complete overhaul, and this is the result:

Identity:
Next Design: Guarding the Net (Creation and Control)

Total Cards: (49)

Agenda: (8)
3x Accelerated Beta Test (Core)
3x Priority Requisition (Core)
1x Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus)
1x Project Wotan (Creation and Control)

Asset: (11)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) ■
3x Adonis Campaign (Core)
3x Eve Campaign (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Rex Campaign (True Colors)

ICE: (25)
3x RSVP (True Colors) ■■
3x Pop-up Window (Cyber Exodus) ■
3x Eli 1.0 (Future Proof)
3x Fenris (True Colors)
2x Hudson 1.0 (Mala Tempora)
2x Janus 1.0 (What Lies Ahead)
3x NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves)
3x Paper Wall (Mala Tempora)
1x Wotan (Second Thoughts)
2x Grim (Opening Moves)

Operation: (3)
3x Hedge Fund (Core)

Upgrade: (2)
2x Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead)

Total Agenda Points: 20

Influence Values Totals -
Haas-Bioroid: 51
Jinteki: 0
NBN: 12
The Weyland Consortium: 0

I would appreciate any feedback onto how improve it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Captain Frisk
United States
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
MIND|GAMES
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Kroen, I think you're on the right track here. After looking at the impact of agenda density + trashable assets a few weeks ago, i removed MMC from my HBFA deck in favor of eve campaigns. While the runner will go crazy to burn a rezzed MMC, too often it was being burned out of R&D / HQ - and then weakening the defense of other cards in that server.

The runner rarely trashes unrezzed eve campaigns, and if they do, you're probably feeling good about life.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Falko Sieverding
Germany
Rees
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I play HB Next in the moment with 25 ICE, 3 HF, 3 GL and 3 AdonisC. It works well with a good start and wins with an ABT scored in the sevond turn.
But if it has a bad start, no Runner has problems winning against it.
I tried to get this ID to work and i donnot think it is on the tier 1 level.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bob Bobberson
msg tools
Avatar
kroen wrote:
Nords3x4 wrote:
Kroen, have a deck list?
Yeah, originally I had a 45 card deck with 25 ICE that only used MMC/Alix for economy. Reading through the replies here made me want to do a complete overhaul, and this is the result:

Identity:
Next Design: Guarding the Net (Creation and Control)

Total Cards: (49)

Agenda: (8)
3x Accelerated Beta Test (Core)
3x Priority Requisition (Core)
1x Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus)
1x Project Wotan (Creation and Control)

Asset: (11)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) ■
3x Adonis Campaign (Core)
3x Eve Campaign (Humanity's Shadow)
2x Rex Campaign (True Colors)

ICE: (25)
3x RSVP (True Colors) ■■
3x Pop-up Window (Cyber Exodus) ■
3x Eli 1.0 (Future Proof)
3x Fenris (True Colors)
2x Hudson 1.0 (Mala Tempora)
2x Janus 1.0 (What Lies Ahead)
3x NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves)
3x Paper Wall (Mala Tempora)
1x Wotan (Second Thoughts)
2x Grim (Opening Moves)

Operation: (3)
3x Hedge Fund (Core)

Upgrade: (2)
2x Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead)

Total Agenda Points: 20

Influence Values Totals -
Haas-Bioroid: 51
Jinteki: 0
NBN: 12
The Weyland Consortium: 0

I would appreciate any feedback onto how improve it.

Nice, an early Adonis behind an RSVP is a happy time, unless they Inside job it...

Why the Fenris with no flatline threat past a miracle surprise Janus? Wouldn't Enigma be a much better etr.

Kudos for trying them, but the Rex's are suspect. A rezzed Grim will probably send the runner back to their stack, not into your servers, no? The bad pub doesn't mean a thing after you've scored 7 points! And there's plenty better econ cards--PADs if you want another asset, and Green Levels, which you'll always be happy to draw and play.

2 Janus and a Woton with no cheats past ABT is scary. If you want to tax, Heimdall or Ichi 1.0 may do it cheaper, and it's reasonable to rez them again if they get shutdown.

No Rotos? Interesting.

Edit, duh--3 Priority Requistions. I see the light on the Woton and Janus now.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Redston
Israel
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
RSVP is also a killer with Ash.

Brain Damage is always nice, and unlike Viktor, Fenris can't be clicked though.

I'm currently experimenting with Rex. If it fires, it can remove Fentirs' BP or simply give me 5c for the investment of 1c which is nice. It only needs to survive rezzed 2 turns, as you rez it before your turn begins so it actually starts with 2 counters. There may be better options, but Rex is new and I'd like to try it before I rule it out.

I also have PriReq to cheat big ICE into play.

I've had bad experiences with Rotos but that's just me personally. It's very lucky that it actually trashes a program, and even if it does it auto dies to Parasite or is broken super cheaply by any Killer.

The problem with this build, however, is that it's insanely vulnurable to Whizzard, as you'll be asseting horizontally with nothing protecting them other than the occasional Pop-Up/RSVP. The original build on the other hand is putting MMC/Alix into the barricaded remote and replacing it with an agenda when needed.

And yeah sure Whizzard isn't that popular but even ignoring him I'm not sure what the better build is.

Also I know and don't care that this deck isn't tourament worthy. And yeah, it might work better with EtF but I'm bored with that ID.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Redston
Israel
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've toyed with the idea of using Isabel McGuire to return Eves/Adonises to hand before their final payoff to reinstall. Do you think it's a viable strategy? I can go -2 Rex +2 Isabel if needed. As a bonus, Isabel works wonderfully against Parasite and Caissas.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Falko Sieverding
Germany
Rees
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For this purpose is Isabel not a good option against better eco or more eco.
Against Paras and Caissas you have one thing in your deck, more ICE!

Try Shipment for MM and install two ICE in one turn with an agenda in root and advance this agenda two times. It is another kind of eco ( the click one ) but makes for fun plays ( Aggressive Sec is an auto-include).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Redston
Israel
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here's the decklist of the second build:

Identity:
Next Design: Guarding the Net (Creation and Control)

Total Cards: (45)

Agenda: (8)
3x Accelerated Beta Test (Core)
3x Priority Requisition (Core)
1x Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus)
1x Project Wotan (Creation and Control)

Asset: (6)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) ■
3x Alix T4LB07 (Creation and Control)/Melange Mining Corp (Core)

ICE: (25)
3x RSVP (True Colors) ■■
3x Pop-up Window (Cyber Exodus) ■
3x Eli 1.0 (Future Proof)
3x Fenris (True Colors)
2x Grim (Opening Moves)
2x Hudson 1.0 (Mala Tempora)
2x Janus 1.0 (What Lies Ahead)
3x NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves)
3x Paper Wall (Mala Tempora)
1x Wotan (Second Thoughts)

Operation: (3)
3x Hedge Fund (Core)

Upgrade: (3)
3x Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead)

Total Agenda Points: 20

Influence Values Totals -
Haas-Bioroid: 37
Jinteki: 0
NBN: 12
The Weyland Consortium: 0

As you can see, only differences are the economy, smaller deck size and a 3rd Ash. Not sure which is better.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt
Australia
Newcastle
NSW
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I haven't played NEXT Design since around Opening Moves/Second Thoughts, but I always liked Alix in the deck, similar to the way you're trying to use her Kroen.

I always found that she'd get more and more urgent to trash as you put more counters on her it was just a matter of figuring out how far you could push the Runner.

Agreed with upthread as to whether or not MMC taking up the entire turn is worth it in a rush deck type...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg Nordeng
United States
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have some experience with NEXT, but I have a lot of experience with those cards.

I think you are losing value on RSVP by playing clickable ICE. You have to play many bioroids or none at all I think. Looking at your deck it seems you want to play fast, which makes me want to say none at all.

Maybe swap ELI for Bastion or Wall of Static. It opens up another play to seal them out of a server by putting RSVP in front of hard ETR, vs RSVP doing very little in front of an ELI.

I would also switch Janus for an ETR ICE like Heimdall2.0. Janus is neat and all, but brain damage is only a little annoying for the runner. You need them out of servers, and you need them out NOW. Heimdall2.0 will also dish his fair share of BD over time.

I think RSVP+ASH is really cool and I am guessing it could be pretty strong. Do you think you will have enough econ to win ash traces when they CAN break RSVP?

If you are going to bank the majority of your income on three assets (highly risky imo), then I would go Mellange for the sheer massive amounts it can generate.

Hope it helps. Cool idea. I hope you can make it strong and competitive.

*Edit* - Afterthought: IDK of there is room, but 1 interns could be good. Bring back an ash on match point, or "free" install on your glacier from hand/archives isn't bad either.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Fanjoy
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
kroen wrote:
I've toyed with the idea of using Isabel McGuire to return Eves/Adonises to hand before their final payoff to reinstall. Do you think it's a viable strategy? I can go -2 Rex +2 Isabel if needed. As a bonus, Isabel works wonderfully against Parasite and Caissas.
Getting full value out of one Adonis Campaign is pretty good: Install + 4 credits returns 12 credits.

Using Isabel once to return one Adonis Campaign so you can reuse it once: Install Isabel, Click to bounce, Install Adonis + 4 credits returns 9 credits. 3 clicks + 4 credits to return 9 credits is not that great.

For the second and future times you use Isabel to recur an Adonis campaign, you save the click to install Isabel. 2 clicks + 4 credits returns 9 credits. Decent, but this feels like fantasy land (what has the runner been doing for the ten turns it took you to go through Adonis Campaign three times?)

Credits-per-click-wise, bouncing Eve Campaign with Isabel is also pretty strong, but again...what has the runner been doing for the 15 turns it takes to get all of the credits off of Eve twice?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean Trundle
msg tools
mb
kroen wrote:
Here's the decklist of the second build:

Identity:
Next Design: Guarding the Net (Creation and Control)

Total Cards: (45)

Agenda: (8)
3x Accelerated Beta Test (Core)
3x Priority Requisition (Core)
1x Project Vitruvius (Cyber Exodus)
1x Project Wotan (Creation and Control)

Asset: (6)
3x Jackson Howard (Opening Moves) ■
3x Alix T4LB07 (Creation and Control)/Melange Mining Corp (Core)

ICE: (25)
3x RSVP (True Colors) ■■
3x Pop-up Window (Cyber Exodus) ■
3x Eli 1.0 (Future Proof)
3x Fenris (True Colors)
2x Grim (Opening Moves)
2x Hudson 1.0 (Mala Tempora)
2x Janus 1.0 (What Lies Ahead)
3x NEXT Bronze (Opening Moves)
3x Paper Wall (Mala Tempora)
1x Wotan (Second Thoughts)

Operation: (3)
3x Hedge Fund (Core)

Upgrade: (3)
3x Ash 2X3ZB9CY (What Lies Ahead)

Total Agenda Points: 20

Influence Values Totals -
Haas-Bioroid: 37
Jinteki: 0
NBN: 12
The Weyland Consortium: 0

As you can see, only differences are the economy, smaller deck size and a 3rd Ash. Not sure which is better.

RSVP is not great here. Sure, it works with Ash, which is cute and all, but you have very few trashable assets to protect. Which means that it is almost useless if it is the innermost ice on any server without Ash installed. As NEXT, you really, really want to play all the ice in your opening hand with the ID ability: every ice you play at that point is not only a free install, but a free draw. So you can't afford to sit on it if it's in the opening hand, and you can't count on it to protect a remote until you also draw Ash. I cut Chums from my NEXT deck for the same reason -- great in a lot of theoretical scenarios, but I groaned every time I saw one in my opening hand. RSVPs synergy with Ash offers a little more utility than Chum, but not much: all in all, your influence is probably better spent elsewhere.

In response to the original question, I favor MMC. Putting those counters on Alix requires you to have credits in the first place: you'll be installing ice on servers which are already 2-3 deep. Whereas MMC can bring you back from nearly-broke (a position you'll find yourself in often, rezzing this many ice with so little econ) to a sizeable credit pool very quickly. It puts immediate pressure on the runner to come trash it, which will often open a scoring window when they overextend themselves to do so. If they (foolishly) leave it on the table, the tempo of MMC also works well with your ice-heavy draws: spend a couple turns running MMC until your hand size maxes out, then spend a bunch of credits installing three ice in one turn, wash, rinse, repeat.

My only complaint about MMC in my NEXT deck (and believe me, it's a small complaint: MMC and Ash are the superstars of that deck) is how easy it is to trash when accessed from HQ/R&D. If I were looking to replace it with another form of econ, I would probably turn to something with a heftier trash cost. Unfortunately, none of the good options there are burst-y enough, and you can't normally leave your mega-remote dedicated to an Eve Campaign or the like for the requisite number of turns. Operations are another option, but truth be told I *like* it when the runner spends a bunch of credits cracking a remote to trash an MMC: very often, that creates just the window I need to pop an agenda down when they're too broke to get back in.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Morgan
United States
Hattiesburg
Mississippi
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This thread should be helpful with all things NEXT. Me and another guy from my meta have gotten great ideas from here and NEXT is catching a lot of runners off guard locally.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1079213/next-design-analysis...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
C Spiekerman
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
strundle wrote:

RSVP is not great here. Sure, it works with Ash, which is cute and all, but you have very few trashable assets to protect. Which means that it is almost useless if it is the innermost ice on any server without Ash installed. As NEXT, you really, really want to play all the ice in your opening hand with the ID ability
[...]
My only complaint about MMC in my NEXT deck (and believe me, it's a small complaint: MMC and Ash are the superstars of that deck) is how easy it is to trash when accessed from HQ/R&D. If I were looking to replace it with another form of econ, I would probably turn to something with a heftier trash cost.
[...]

Solution! Keep those MMC's and place the NEXT-bonus RSVP in front of R&D!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls