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A Touch of Evil: The Supernatural Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: More questions that came up from last night! rss

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martin andreasson
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Just before i was going to do my turn and make my showdown, i was standing close to the monastery. I Paid the cost for the showdown and got my Lair card which had the Fields as location. Only way to get there before the werewolf healed up was to go through the secret passage. The question is though. Could i have managed that on the same turn with a high roll, or do you only get through the secret passage by paying the investigation cost and then end movement? That was unclear but in the end decided i could and i actually managed to kill the werewolf that same turn!

Another thing was when my friends had his showdown. We decided he could use his investigation to heal between the rounds. Was that correct on our part?

Also a question about minions and movement came up. The crimson hand had one of their minions on the monastery. And when we were KOd we ended up there.We had to fight the minion first before moving. But after defeating or escaping the minion, could we then proceed with both movement and then do our actions as usual? Or does movement ends after fighting the minion?

And last about Mystery cards and if they remains in place.Can you have each and every mysterycard with that text in play at same time? Or do they cancel each other when they are drawn? We decided that they would "stack" but that was quite annoying when several came into play at same time hehe

/Zol.

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Phil Hatfield
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Pay close attention to the sequence of play. That will answer your first question.
Example: First, you either roll to Move, or you Linger (and roll to see if you are attacked).
Then you move.
Then you encounter any minions in the spot you move to or end in.
Then you have an Action phase where any of these actions can be done (only one is Mandatory)
1. Encounter the space (Mandatory) but does NOT have to be done first
2. Collect Investigation
3. Heal a wound
4. Look at Town Elder secret
5. Buy a Lair Card
6. Start a Showdown
7. Exchange cards (if playing cooperatively)


So you'll see from your first question, you could not buy the Lair card, and then Move to the Fields in order to start the Showdown, as Movement happens before the Action of Buying a Lair Card.

You'll also notice that the character who got knocked out and put in the Monastery, which then has a minion move into it, does NOT have to attack the minion if the character is Moving out. The rules say that the minion must be encountered if moved into or if you end your movement in the same hex. So a character starting in the same space that desires to move would roll to move, move OUT, and therefore not have to encounter the minion. If the character chose to Linger, it would have to encounter the minion, but only AFTER the player rolls to see if the Villain attacks the character for Lingering.

Movement does not end after fighting a minion, UNLESS the character chooses to flee from the fight with the minion. So say another minion started just outside the Monastery and rolled a 3. The character moved into the Monastery where the Crimson Hand and other character were located. The moving character would have to engage the Crimson Hand in the spot. If the Crimson Hand was defeated, the moving character could continue with its remaining movement, or it could stop in the spot and take actions. If the Crimson Hand inflicted too much damage on the moving character, the moving character could retreat, moving back to where it started from (since the first space of movement was the Monastery) and the character's turn would end.

As for the Remains IN Play cards, you'll have to give an example of which cards you are talking about. I'm not thinking of any duplicates, so you'll have to explain the situation that came up.

Hope this helps.
 
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martin andreasson
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GrimacePCH wrote:
Pay close attention to the sequence of play. That will answer your first question.
Example: First, you either roll to Move, or you Linger (and roll to see if you are attacked).
Then you move.
Then you encounter any minions in the spot you move to or end in.
Then you have an Action phase where any of these actions can be done (only one is Mandatory)
1. Encounter the space (Mandatory) but does NOT have to be done first
2. Collect Investigation
3. Heal a wound
4. Look at Town Elder secret
5. Buy a Lair Card
6. Start a Showdown
7. Exchange cards (if playing cooperatively)


So you'll see from your first question, you could not buy the Lair card, and then Move to the Fields in order to start the Showdown, as Movement happens before the Action of Buying a Lair Card.

You'll also notice that the character who got knocked out and put in the Monastery, which then has a minion move into it, does NOT have to attack the minion if the character is Moving out. The rules say that the minion must be encountered if moved into or if you end your movement in the same hex. So a character starting in the same space that desires to move would roll to move, move OUT, and therefore not have to encounter the minion. If the character chose to Linger, it would have to encounter the minion, but only AFTER the player rolls to see if the Villain attacks the character for Lingering.

Movement does not end after fighting a minion, UNLESS the character chooses to flee from the fight with the minion. So say another minion started just outside the Monastery and rolled a 3. The character moved into the Monastery where the Crimson Hand and other character were located. The moving character would have to engage the Crimson Hand in the spot. If the Crimson Hand was defeated, the moving character could continue with its remaining movement, or it could stop in the spot and take actions. If the Crimson Hand inflicted too much damage on the moving character, the moving character could retreat, moving back to where it started from (since the first space of movement was the Monastery) and the character's turn would end.

As for the Remains IN Play cards, you'll have to give an example of which cards you are talking about. I'm not thinking of any duplicates, so you'll have to explain the situation that came up.

Hope this helps.

sigh, i just made a looooong post in answer to your post but it got lost in space somehow hehe.Should have copied the text beforehand!cool
Anyhow. It helps a lot reading the answer you gave, things will be different next time, and i might not be the winner if the same thing happens hehe.
Ow well. Also my friend will be happy that he doesnt have to fight crimson hand again after waking up from his KO

About the "remain in plays card" it was one that if you lingered you would be attacked on a roll of 1-2 instead of 1.
After that several other cards came into play with "remains in play" text. After that we discussed if a new card like that( not a duplicate but a remains in play card) would cancel and discard the first and replace it as remains in play. I think we are a bit tainted from playing Arkham horror though. There if you have a rumor or such in play they replace each other when a new is being drawn.
Thanks a lot! Zol.
 
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Phil Hatfield
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So you're talking about you get the "Remains in Play" card of the villain attacking on a 1 and 2 instead of just a 1, and then you get another "Remains in Play" that says the Shadow Track moves one step closer to darkness each Mystery Phase, right?

If that's the case, then BOTH of them remain in play! That's why you need to get event cards that help you eliminate some "Remains in Play" cards, or acquire an ally like Sophie the Midwife who can cancel cards.

So a new "Remains in Play" card does NOT get rid of a prior card unless it happens to say so (such a Weather cards...something that isn't in just the base game, but comes into play when you get expansions for the game).

 
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Chuck Hurd
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zolamnus wrote:

Another thing was when my friends had his showdown. We decided he could use his investigation to heal between the rounds. Was that correct on our part?
Using Investigation is an Action. Initiating and conducting a Showdown is also an Action. You cannot perform one Action within another. So while the Showdown is ongoing no other Actions can be performed.

zolamnus wrote:

Also a question about minions and movement came up. The crimson hand had one of their minions on the monastery. And when we were KOd we ended up there.We had to fight the minion first before moving. But after defeating or escaping the minion, could we then proceed with both movement and then do our actions as usual? Or does movement ends after fighting the minion?
If you're KO'd you stand up during the Mystery Phase. If there is a Minion there when you stand up, or one appears there after you stand up, you must fight it immediately in the Mystery Phase for at least one round, after which you can escape. You cannot resolve to be in the same space with a Minion and not fight.

Here is some relevant text from the rule book:
"Note that it is also possible (and often likely) to Fight in other parts of your turn or even during the Mystery Phase." (page 12)
"Any time a Minion appears or moves into a space with a Hero, that Hero must immediately fight the Minion." (page 17)

Your premise that you had to fight the Minion before moving (after standing up from being KO'd) is not quite accurate. You have to fight the Minion during the Mystery Phase - so by the time your turn comes you have either already defeated the Minion or you had escaped the Minion and now stand in a space adjacent to where you laid KO'd, or you lay KO'd by the Minion (in which case you loose your turn and stand back up in the next Mystery Phase).

Also, the only thing that stops a Hero's Movement is a Minion.
Also from the rule book:
"The only thing that stops a Hero’s movement is entering a space with a Minion that is already in play" (page 11)
"If during their turn, a Hero moves into a space with an enemy (a Minion Counter already on the board), their movement ends and they must fight before moving on to their Actions phase." (page 12)

You are not able to move into a space with a Minion, defeat it, and keep moving. The Minion stops your Movement phase of your turn. You proceed to your Actions phase if you are able to defeat it.

Hope that helps.
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Phil Hatfield
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So basically the rules contradicts itself.

In one area, it says that you only encounter minions when you "move into or end your movement in the same location".

Then it also says "any time a minion appears or moves into the space with a hero, that hero must immediately fight the minion"

So either Flying Frog better have a really good FAQ or it's a You Decide sort of situation.
 
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Chuck Hurd
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Hmmm...well we know that Minions move and can move into a Hero's space. Also there are the "Attacked" corner location cards and Lingering that can bring a Minion upon you.

Where is the word "only" used that way in the rule book to create the contradiction?
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martin andreasson
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GrimacePCH wrote:
So you're talking about you get the "Remains in Play" card of the villain attacking on a 1 and 2 instead of just a 1, and then you get another "Remains in Play" that says the Shadow Track moves one step closer to darkness each Mystery Phase, right?

If that's the case, then BOTH of them remain in play! That's why you need to get event cards that help you eliminate some "Remains in Play" cards, or acquire an ally like Sophie the Midwife who can cancel cards.

So a new "Remains in Play" card does NOT get rid of a prior card unless it happens to say so (such a Weather cards...something that isn't in just the base game, but comes into play when you get expansions for the game).


yes that is what i meant, thank you for that clarification
/zol.
 
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martin andreasson
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Carcking wrote:
zolamnus wrote:

Another thing was when my friends had his showdown. We decided he could use his investigation to heal between the rounds. Was that correct on our part?
Using Investigation is an Action. Initiating and conducting a Showdown is also an Action. You cannot perform one Action within another. So while the Showdown is ongoing no other Actions can be performed.

zolamnus wrote:

Also a question about minions and movement came up. The crimson hand had one of their minions on the monastery. And when we were KOd we ended up there.We had to fight the minion first before moving. But after defeating or escaping the minion, could we then proceed with both movement and then do our actions as usual? Or does movement ends after fighting the minion?
If you're KO'd you stand up during the Mystery Phase. If there is a Minion there when you stand up, or one appears there after you stand up, you must fight it immediately in the Mystery Phase for at least one round, after which you can escape. You cannot resolve to be in the same space with a Minion and not fight.

Here is some relevant text from the rule book:
"Note that it is also possible (and often likely) to Fight in other parts of your turn or even during the Mystery Phase." (page 12)
"Any time a Minion appears or moves into a space with a Hero, that Hero must immediately fight the Minion." (page 17)

Your premise that you had to fight the Minion before moving (after standing up from being KO'd) is not quite accurate. You have to fight the Minion during the Mystery Phase - so by the time your turn comes you have either already defeated the Minion or you had escaped the Minion and now stand in a space adjacent to where you laid KO'd, or you lay KO'd by the Minion (in which case you loose your turn and stand back up in the next Mystery Phase).

Also, the only thing that stops a Hero's Movement is a Minion.
Also from the rule book:
"The only thing that stops a Hero’s movement is entering a space with a Minion that is already in play" (page 11)
"If during their turn, a Hero moves into a space with an enemy (a Minion Counter already on the board), their movement ends and they must fight before moving on to their Actions phase." (page 12)

You are not able to move into a space with a Minion, defeat it, and keep moving. The Minion stops your Movement phase of your turn. You proceed to your Actions phase if you are able to defeat it.

Hope that helps.


it does certainly help In this very thread though there is still a contradiction about the minion and moving into a space or being there when the minion is there.
Someone said you could move to a space with a minion , kill it and then continue moving if im not mistaken. But you said your movement stops right away and after killing it( if you do) you go onto making your actions. Can you guys clarify what is the correct ruling there?
/Thank you, sol.
 
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Daniel U. Thibault
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The Showdown has its own "turn sequence", and I'm pretty sure in between fight rounds you can do any actions you care to. I'll have to look it up.

Edit: Yup, here it is, at step 4:

Showdowns
Other Heroes may pay the Lair card cost to join the Showdown, regardless of their location.
1. Form the Hunting Party
[The Hero chooses up to two Elders (not dead nor evil) to join him / Each Hero may be assigned one Elder (or Militia in the space)].
The Hero of the People Elder is not part of the Hunting Party.
2. Reveal Secrets
Evil Elders join the Villain.
3. Accusations (skip)
Each other player may pick one Elder not in the Hunting Party he believes to be evil. Pay the Investigation cost and reveal the Elder’s Secret(s). If a false accusation, the Hero loses any remaining Investigation.
4. Escape/Regroup
The Heroes may escape, exchange Items and Allies, reassign Elders and the Militia, or send Elders back to town. Healing and other “in-between fight rounds” actions may occur.
5. Showdown Chart (optional)
Not on the first round; may be cancelled as if it were an Event or Mystery.
6. Showdown Fight Round
The Villain must assign one combat die to each Elder. The Hero may assign one or more dice to each Evil Elder. Any fatal wound on the Villain is transferred to an Evil Elder instead.
Each Hero, starting with the one who initiated the Showdown, fights a round. The Villain fights back against each Hero with its full abilities.
Elders may use Resolution tokens to avoid being killed or to gain +2 combat per token.
Loop back to sub-step 4.
The Showdown ends when the Villain is defeated or when all Heroes escape or are KO’d.
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Phil Hatfield
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Okay, I did some thorough reading of the rules in an attempt to resolve the apparent contradiction.

First:
On Page 12 of the basic rules, "If during their turn, a Hero moves into a space with an enemy (a Minion counter already on the board) their movement ends and they must fight before moving on to their Actions phase."

Second:
KO'd heroes on Page 17 of the basic rules, "While KO'd, a Hero does not participate in any element of the game. They do not collect Investigation, cannot be attacked, etc."

Third:
Also on Page 17 of the basic rules under Minions, in the white box, "Any time a Minion appears or moves into a space with a Hero, that Hero must immediately fight the Minion."

A little underneath the white box there is the line "The end result is that a Hero and a Minion counter cannot be on the same space on the board without having to immediately fight."


So, looking at the situation of the KO'd Hero being in the space, the Minion moving into the space, and the KO'd Hero being revived, based on Point 3, it would seem to mean that the Hero would have to immediately fight the Minion during the Mystery Phase, but the Hero wouldn't lose any movement because of that battle.

In the case of the Hero moving one space into an area containing a Minion, and fighting the Minion, as well as defeating the Minion, it would seem by Point 1, that the Hero couldn't continue it's movement. Thus, I was originally incorrect in saying that the Hero could continue moving. So it doesn't matter if they rolled a 5 and moved only one space to fight the Minion, they couldn't continue their movement. That's an unfortunate rule, in my opinion.

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MoonSylver
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Minions are supposed to be an inconvenience & a hindrance. That's what they do.
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Chuck Hurd
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Urhixidur wrote:
The Showdown has its own "turn sequence", and I'm pretty sure in between fight rounds you can do any actions you care to. I'll have to look it up.
There are quite a few things you can do...and some you cannot. You cannot do or perform things that are defined as an Action that would normally be performed in your turn. For example, healing a wound with three Investigation is not allowed. Nor can you Investigate a Town Elder in hopes that he is a Hero of the People and may come to your aid. You may not shop at the Blacksmith's shop if your Showdown happened to be at that location. You also could not heal at the Doctor's Office if your Showdown was there. You cannot use cards or abilities that say "as an action...".

You can use cards fairly freely (as long as they don't say "play as an action..."), exchange items with other heroes as well as other items you mentioned...but the timing of these various steps must be observed within the Showdown.

Here are some relevant quotes from Jason:

Question: "At the beginning of each Showdown Fight Round, can a player still spend Investigaton Tokens to look at other Town Elders in the hopes of drawing one with a "Hero of the People" Secret and a chance to gain a 3rd Elder to assist them? Or, if that Secret has been previously revealed, can a player pay the 4 Investigation to have that Elder join them (even though two Elders are already with them)?

Answer: No to either of these. Both of these are Actions and may only be done in the Hero's 'Take Actions' phase during their own turn. You can't stop in the middle of one Action to take another and fighting the whole Showdown is a single Action." (Jason Hill 8/23/08 BGG)

--------------------------

Question: "You can't do any actions while in a fight or a showdown, so you can't heal during a fight or a showdown using 3 investigation to heal a wound?

Answer: That is correct. No Healing as an Action (or any other Actions for that matter) during a fight or a Showdown. The hero may only perform one action at a time within his turn, not one action within another." (Jason Hill 10/26/08)

--------------------------

Question: "If a town elder in a hunting party is killed in the battle with the villian during a showdown and the shadow track is on 1 or 2 do you lose the game immediately or does the final battle continue once you initiate it until someone is ko'ed/escapes? If you do lose can you play reassuring speech as a reaction to move the shadow track back even though you are in the lair? Does that count as being in a town space to satisfy the requirement to play reassuring speech?

Answer: If the Shadow Track reaches Darkness during a Showdown, you have until the end of the current Showdown Fight Round to defeat the Villain. Otherwise the game is lost. Using Reassuring Speech is an Action and Actions may only be performed during your Hero's 'Take Actions' phase (and only one at a time). Therefore, you may NOT perform any other Actions during a Showdown." (Jason Hill 6/28/09 BGG)

--------------------------

Question: "In a 4-player co-op game, each hero individually battles the villain, dealing and taking damage as appropriate. According to the rules, heroes make take actions from cards, such as healing, "between rounds". They can also flee between rounds. My question is whether a "round of fighting" in a co-operative game is the time it takes for all 4 heroes to resolve their attack, or is the the time for 1 of the heroes to resolve? If for example hero 1 resolves their attack and takes their damage; immediateley after this could heroes 2-4 all flee or can this only be done when all 4 heroes have acted?

Answer: I think that the term you are looking for is 'Showdown Fight Round'. This is the time from the first Hero starting their attack until the last Hero resolves their attack. Before the first Showdown Fight Round, Heroes have a chance to play healing cards, exchange Items/Allies, etc, as well as between each subsequent Showdown Fight Round. They may also choose to flee at the at the start of any Showdown Fight Round after the first. It is important to note that Heroes may not 'Take Actions' during a Fight (Showdown or otherwise), even between Fight Rounds. A Hero may only take an Action during the 'Take Actions' phase of their Hero Turn and each Action must be completed before the next begins (starting a Showdown is an Action). The Healing referred to is only from cards and special abilities." (Jason Hill 10/20/09 BGG)

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Daniel U. Thibault
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Carcking wrote:

Answer: I think that the term you are looking for is 'Showdown Fight Round'. This is the time from the first Hero starting their attack until the last Hero resolves their attack. Before the first Showdown Fight Round, Heroes have a chance to play healing cards, exchange Items/Allies, etc, as well as between each subsequent Showdown Fight Round. They may also choose to flee at the at the start of any Showdown Fight Round after the first. It is important to note that Heroes may not 'Take Actions' during a Fight (Showdown or otherwise), even between Fight Rounds. A Hero may only take an Action during the 'Take Actions' phase of their Hero Turn and each Action must be completed before the next begins (starting a Showdown is an Action). The Healing referred to is only from cards and special abilities." (Jason Hill 10/20/09 BGG)

I went back and re-read the rules. Indeed, although Actions aren't specifically forbidden, they're never explicitly allowed either. It looks like the problem is the description of what can be done "in-between fight rounds" used the word "action". I'll fix that in the rules summary.
 
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