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Subject: Spotting.... rss

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Dennis Kochan
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Hello....

Its something "we've" been doing for awhile... and it seems to work out.
You might want to try it too. A unit may attempt to spot regardless of its combat-results status.

That is to say... if a unit is either 'D' or 'DD' it may still 'spot'according to its inherent capabilities. The 'logic' was this. A unit that is being attacked vigorously enough to cause it to disperse would be on the 'horn' calling for support. They'd be screaming for support, the CAT wouldn't have their tongue. They'd be sending runners to the CP. Firing prearranged flare signals, marking the enemy location with tracer fire and anything else they could do. They'd be using any and all methods to call for support.

Just a thought....

Dennis
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craig grinnell
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That's a pretty good idea you have there, but it might cause an imbalance in the game.

On the other side, however, the "D" and "DD" aren't simply tanks looking for cover. There is panic involved as the unit in question is looking for places to hide to save its butt. The idea of a unit under the level of fire that causes such a result can call for fire is something you only find in the movies.

In reality, when you are getting shot at, your only concern is saving your butt by getting out of the line of fire. After that, then you call in artillery.

Movies tend to portray soldiers as "superheroes" that can think clearly and rationally at all times, and that is so not true.

One bullet, six inches from your nose, can turn the bravest soul into a coward, even if only for a minute or two (which is about the length of a game turn)
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Charles Neal
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"the CAT wouldn't have their tongue"
Is that a pun Dennis? As in Close Assault Tactics?
Just checking, interesting idea you have.
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Juan Valdez
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dgk196 wrote:

That is to say... if a unit is either 'D' or 'DD' it may still 'spot'according to its inherent capabilities.
Dennis



My hunch is that it will affect play balance, but have no idea how.

Any results to report?

How many games and which situations have tried and who won which?


I'm pretty sure it would make a game move just a little faster with respect to the clock on the wall though.
 
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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

Thanks for the responses everyone... 'feedback', the best thing on the 'net'. Yep, we've tried it in several variations. Different 'forces' had various types of communications schemes. In some instances, some units might not be able to call for 'support' from a higher level. You'll have to do some research there as to what is appropriate for the era that the scenario covers. Much of the 'Artillery' that is deemed indirect-fire capable might not be always the case.

Since the game lacks Forward Observers we, tried to come up with something that would take their place. Some method to call for support, at whatever level the scenario simulates. Thats the 'key', don't make the WWII forces into the current Sat/Nav - Computer Controlled - cell phone capable armies of today. But, on the other hand you should be able to call for support from the units within your own 'organization'. After all thats why they are there.

Keeping your head down when the 'fur flies' always a good idea. We thought about it too. We came to the conclusion, that given the size of the units, given that most 'organizations' had personal assigned to do just that, it should be capable of being something the units can do. Also, most forces had the next 'highest' level of command in such a place as to be 'visible' to it. That is to say the Company CP is usually in a a position to observe his subordinate units. So, somebody, somewhere, should be able to 'call it in'.

Its just a suggestion, try it out. You probably will get some different results from a scenario when you use this. I guess if its too effective, we could always make it conditional on a die-roll or some other scheme. Let us know if you give it a try and how it worked out. Last thought, yep, it was a 'pun', intentionally so. Couldn't pass it up, sorry about that.

Dennis
 
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Byron Henderson
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It's an interesting idea that goes against the grain of the game IMHO. However, in the interest of experimentation (which is almost always fun), I would throw out these options.

Either limit it to (1) units that suffered a "D" result ("DD" would prevent spotting) or (2) tie it to a Morale roll at the time of the spotting attempt. I would think, since the unit is Dispersed, the Morale Roll would suffer a +1 DRM or something similar. The second option could also be an issue for plotting indirect fire if you use it. The result could be the loss of the plotted/requested fire for that turn.

As to whether it would actually be possible, I tend to think not. That's not because units didn't have individuals with the ability to call fire in even if the platoon was dispersed (in game terms) but that the confusion surrounding the platoon in those minutes--the leaders rallying, some men possibly abandoning the position in a panic, the limited number of men with the training and the proper equipment to do the "spotting"--would probably prevent it more often than not. Just my thoughts.
 
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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

Interesting variations. Yep, variations are the order of the day. I think that with enough feedback a good set of 'rules' can be crafted to make the game just that more interesting and less predicable.

I think that the primary consideration for any of these variants is that you don't impart abilities units didn't actually have. Then conversely, you don't restrict the abilities that the units had. Its hard to come up with a perfect set of variants. You really can't base it on a lot of information because for the most part its not there in any useful quantities.

Thanks very much for the feedback, hope to hear more on the subject to all you followers of the game.

Dennis
 
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Frank Clarke
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dgk196 wrote:
Hello....

Its something "we've" been doing for awhile... and it seems to work out.
You might want to try it too. A unit may attempt to spot regardless of its combat-results status.

That is to say... if a unit is either 'D' or 'DD' it may still 'spot'according to its inherent capabilities. The 'logic' was this. A unit that is being attacked vigorously enough to cause it to disperse would be on the 'horn' calling for support. They'd be screaming for support, the CAT wouldn't have their tongue. They'd be sending runners to the CP. Firing prearranged flare signals, marking the enemy location with tracer fire and anything else they could do. They'd be using any and all methods to call for support.

Just a thought....

Dennis


Soviet doctrines requires that only success is supported. Although the mortar platoon would help out its brothers within the company, it (in theory) shouldn't go higher than that. The Divisional Commander allocates artillery, not some Sergeant.

The Americans are different of course .
 
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Dennis Kochan
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Hello...

Of course the purpose of 'spotting' is so that you can bring your weapons to bear or you can keep the enemy under observation for changes in disposition.

So, the age old problem (?) is, how do you reconcile decentralized control with a centralized command? At some point, when you attempt to get more 'guns' on target than are within the immediate command structure you need to pass the target requests and data onto a higher command. So that more 'guns' from other commands may be allocated onto the target.

The target data has to be disseminated to the 'external guns' and a time table of fire and the attack type has to be established. These three things are determined at the higher level of command. In other words the attack has been passed from the decentralized control to the centralized command.

In PB / PL terms (effects), this will result in delays. It will take some number of turns to coordinate and execute the attack. A concentrated attack may take as much as one turn delay for every battery added. Or if the command is deemed trained/experienced/organized sufficiently, these may be done concurrently. Or in some instances, not at all.

What do you think? Does anyone have any good, detailed, accounts of such events?

"Without good rules, you cannot have a good game."

Dennis
 
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