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Subject: Agenda cards from Pegasus opinions? rss

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So I was reading on another post that the personal agendas from pegasus are flawed? Why so, I only have base set but they seem very interesting. Why are motives (from Daybreak) better?
 
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Jeffrey
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In Pegasus, a single random card determines a Cylon Leader's loyalty. He will either be pro-human but want something bad to happen to them first, or pro-Cylon but want the humans to have something positive happen to them. This is very swingy. One card determined in what way the game will be unbalanced (and either way, it will be unbalanced).

In Daybreak, the Cylon Leader gets two ramdom cards very similar to those I described above at the start and two more a four distance. He needs three of these four cards to be fulfilled by the end of the game, and two of those three must show the allegience of the winning side.

I just played a Cylon Leader tonight in a four player game. At the start of the game I had a motive to get food below four and one keep morale above two. One was human, one was Cylon. So I did what I could to get those two conditions without knowing yet who I was rooting for. I even told the humans when a choice opened up to drop food or something else, "I have certain goals, and if you want me on team human, let's lose the food.".

Everyone figured out early on that there were no Cylons on the table, and I realized I needed to push a little against humans or they would run away with the game. The whole time, I was actually fairly honest. "Look guys, I'm just trying to keep the game even until I figure out who I want to side with, so you CAN trust me not to betray you."

By four distance I had my first two goals fairly secured. My other two cards were for humans to win with six population and for Cylons to win with seven distance. I decided to get over to the Cylon fleet board and hammer at their civilians. The Cylon revealed early and helped me. The whole time I'm telling the humans that as soon as I have crippled them enough I'll be happy to help them win, and I'm telling the Cylon that the only avenue I want to pursue to kill the humans is population, so let's work together on that.

Humans ended up losing the game by the most narrow margin. I had met all four goals, so I didn't care who won after they got to distance seven and had lost a bunch of civs. I just had to keep population, morale, and food where I wanted them.

It was much more of an even balance to the game than if I just straight up wanted one side to win, and it was a crazy tightrope for me to get what I wanted.

I LOVE the new Cylon Leader motives.
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Mooseulie Ferenczy
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The one card set up from Pegasus means that the cylon leader has a strong incentive to be entirely honest about their goals, which ruins the mood. Additionally, the Pegasus ones were kinda designed to work best with New Caprica, which most people don't enjoy.
 
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Seems like a bit of the mystery is lost when you can so strongly hint at your motives...but I've never used cylon leaders before so I guess its like that.

I can see how having 1 card decide your allegiance can be dangerous though. I don't know the numbers, but if for example in a 4 player game, 1 cylon and 1 cylon leader, if the leader is pro-cylon, then cylons have it easy; conversely, if leader is pro-humans, cylons have it hard. It cannot be balanced easily and there isn't really an in-between.
 
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Jeffrey
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The secrecy rules do apply, so I couldn't come out and read aloud my cards, but I can, I think, say that I have motives and you should let food take the hit.

When I play a Cylon Leader, I tend to be more aggressive than some would. I let people know that they need to want what I want. I think that the humans are better served making me work harder to get what I want rather than help me hurt them in an effort to get me to side with them, but so far I've gotten away with acting like the player everyone needs to fight over.
 
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LocutusZero wrote:
In Daybreak, the Cylon Leader gets two ramdom cards very similar to those I described above at the start and two more a four distance. He needs three of these four cards to be fulfilled by the end of the game, and two of those three must show the allegience of the winning side.
NOT correct! That's not what the rules say! You need to have 1 or less, unfulfilled Motive card at the end of the game! That means a CL can still win pre-sleeper if both of his Motive cards say Cylon Allegiance!

Granted, there are only 5 of the 7 Cylon Allegiance cards (out of total 14 Motive cards) that have to be dealt pre-sleeper, and the CL needs to be able to win with those condition at early game's end, but it's still possible.

If folks insist on saying it that way, then just say...
pre-sleeper: 2 Cylon Allegiance fulfilled
or
post-sleeper: at least 3 Motives fulfilled with 2 matching the winning side


That out of the way, in more cases, the CL will want to at least wait until sleeper phase to be able to win, as it's more likely he'll get one Human and one Cylon Allegiance, or just have 2 Cylon ones he won't be able to fulfill (either impossible given how the situation's going, or literally impossible, as in the case of either one's that say distance is 7 or more, or 5 or more).

They do add more suspense, as it creates more combination of conditions than any single card could, especially given 2 choose 14, or 4 choose 14 vs. 1 choose 7. One of my previous groups... we had a thing where we ended up playing the game twice a week for 8-something months. Even one person who didn't really go through the list of Agendas eventually memorized all of them. To be fair, I'd imagine some of the others would've gone through the Motives, to know what they're generally about and arm themselves with that knowledge, but at least it's more difficult. If nothing else, it's fun to try to guess Motives watching someone else play as a CL, or on BGG PBF games.

Of course, I've been having less luck dealing with CL, but I'm willing to chalk it up to luck is all....
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1113306/cl-sides-thus-fa...
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ackmondual wrote:
Of course, I've been having less luck dealing with CL, but I'm willing to chalk it up to luck is all....
At least playing a Cylon Leader is always interesting with the Motives, whether you win or lose.
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ackmondual wrote:
LocutusZero wrote:
In Daybreak, the Cylon Leader gets two ramdom cards very similar to those I described above at the start and two more a four distance. He needs three of these four cards to be fulfilled by the end of the game, and two of those three must show the allegience of the winning side.
NOT correct! That's not what the rules say! You need to have 1 or less, unfulfilled Motive card at the end of the game! That means a CL can still win pre-sleeper if both of his Motive cards say Cylon Allegiance!

Yeah, I know, but in my many years of playing BSG, I've never seen a game end pre-sleeper. But yeah, fair enough.

Another plus to this system: say the CL gets four Cylon motives. This is still better than if he got a single Cylon card in the old system, because he needs to make sure that three of his four motives come true. So he'll have to, for instance, make sure humans get at least seven distance, keep their morale up, and make sure Galactica is has no damage (I forget if that is a real card).
 
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Pieter
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LocutusZero wrote:
The secrecy rules do apply, so I couldn't come out and read aloud my cards, but I can, I think, say that I have motives and you should let food take the hit.
It depends on your group, but as a mod of PBF games I would disallow a Cylon Leader coming out and saying that they wanted Food low or want to travel a long distance. According to the secrecy rules, you cannot say anything more about secret information (which motives are) than something like "bad" or "good".

So, if a human player would ask the Cylon Leader: "do you have a preference on the choice I have to make on this crisis?" it is OK if the CL says "I prefer the first option" or "I prefer the second option" or "I don't care." But the CL cannot say "I want you to hurt Food, so the second option." That is giving away too much (yes, even if the CL is lying). Let the humans decide for themselves if they want to conclude that from your preference.
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I want to agree with Pieter on the ideal way to play but just in practice is really messy and hard to draw the line or reinforce (in live play).
 
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LocutusZero wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
LocutusZero wrote:
In Daybreak, the Cylon Leader gets two ramdom cards very similar to those I described above at the start and two more a four distance. He needs three of these four cards to be fulfilled by the end of the game, and two of those three must show the allegience of the winning side.
NOT correct! That's not what the rules say! You need to have 1 or less, unfulfilled Motive card at the end of the game! That means a CL can still win pre-sleeper if both of his Motive cards say Cylon Allegiance!

Yeah, I know, but in my many years of playing BSG, I've never seen a game end pre-sleeper. But yeah, fair enough.

Well, you still wouldn't have played in it, but now you have:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1100188/bsg-397-cylons-on-my...

In that game, the CL could have won if the agendas had come up the other way around, and I know that at least one of the Cylons wasn't even thinking about helping the CL win, because the pressure was on early and delay was too risky ...
 
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LocutusZero wrote:
Yeah, I know, but in my many years of playing BSG, I've never seen a game end pre-sleeper. But yeah, fair enough.

Lucky you. Enter Cylon Dee. Before the first jump manages to move enough civilian ships into target range before pilots could react to win the game. It unfortunately happens because the game is inherently unbalanced.
 
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Flyboy Connor wrote:
LocutusZero wrote:
The secrecy rules do apply, so I couldn't come out and read aloud my cards, but I can, I think, say that I have motives and you should let food take the hit.
It depends on your group, but as a mod of PBF games I would disallow a Cylon Leader coming out and saying that they wanted Food low or want to travel a long distance. According to the secrecy rules, you cannot say anything more about secret information (which motives are) than something like "bad" or "good".

So, if a human player would ask the Cylon Leader: "do you have a preference on the choice I have to make on this crisis?" it is OK if the CL says "I prefer the first option" or "I prefer the second option" or "I don't care." But the CL cannot say "I want you to hurt Food, so the second option." That is giving away too much (yes, even if the CL is lying). Let the humans decide for themselves if they want to conclude that from your preference.

I agree with this, mostly because one of the reasons for the secrecy rules is to avoid having it be expected that someone will volunteer certain information and if they won't then that's suspicious. In this case, if CLs are allowed to say "I want food low" then it will be expected that every CL will say things like that, and any CL that doesn't when asked will immediately be suspected as working against those who are asking.

Also, with the agendas, saying that would effectively tell you what agenda they had, which is clearly a no-no.
 
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Daimbert wrote:
Flyboy Connor wrote:
LocutusZero wrote:
The secrecy rules do apply, so I couldn't come out and read aloud my cards, but I can, I think, say that I have motives and you should let food take the hit.
It depends on your group, but as a mod of PBF games I would disallow a Cylon Leader coming out and saying that they wanted Food low or want to travel a long distance. According to the secrecy rules, you cannot say anything more about secret information (which motives are) than something like "bad" or "good".

So, if a human player would ask the Cylon Leader: "do you have a preference on the choice I have to make on this crisis?" it is OK if the CL says "I prefer the first option" or "I prefer the second option" or "I don't care." But the CL cannot say "I want you to hurt Food, so the second option." That is giving away too much (yes, even if the CL is lying). Let the humans decide for themselves if they want to conclude that from your preference.

I agree with this, mostly because one of the reasons for the secrecy rules is to avoid having it be expected that someone will volunteer certain information and if they won't then that's suspicious. In this case, if CLs are allowed to say "I want food low" then it will be expected that every CL will say things like that, and any CL that doesn't when asked will immediately be suspected as working against those who are asking.

Also, with the agendas, saying that would effectively tell you what agenda they had, which is clearly a no-no.
Well, with Motive cards, you're "revealing" what half or a quarter of your Motives are, which doesn't tell the whole story, but a few more "slips", and before you know it, you can better gleam what the CL is up to now.
 
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