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Subject: Corrosive gas and diagonal movement? rss

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Yesterday we had this question coming up.
If a commando moves diagonally between two spaces, where one is non-passable terrain and the other space contains corrosive gas, does he enter the gas cloud and thus suffer a wound?
My idea (as the Overseer who intentionally placed the gas cloud this way) was that if a commando cannot move diagonally between non-passable terrain and enemy figures (as they 'block' the remaining free space and a commando is no incorporeal being) they do enter the cloud and suffer a wound.
Unsurprisingly, the commando players did not agree and after some discussion I gave in to the majority.

Now, who was right actually? Me or the commandos?
I've taken a pic:


Then, a second question:
What exactly is considered a 'map element' for the skill 'Survivalist'? Toxic gas? Doors? Rubble? Or just the room tile itself? Skimmed the rulebook a few times yesterday but could not find (or overlooked) a definite answer to that question.

Thanks!
 
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Vasilis
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The commando never enters a corrosive cloud space in your example therefore they don't get any damage as per the rules. There is no correlation between the enemy figure+wall space blocking the diagonal passage rule and the corrosive gas cloud positioning.

A map element is any marker that enters the map. If any of those markers do damage, the commando with the Survivalist skill ignores it.

Just my 2 cents.
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Lines J. Hutter
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We play that the move is allowed. Better watch where you playce those CG room cards.
I don´t see a correlation between corrosive gas and non-passable terrain or enemy figures, so I don´t think this rule applies here.
 
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michael peterson
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The correlation between the non-passable terrain or enemy figures is if an enemy figure was in most right lower spot the commando wouldn't be able to make that diagonal move as it would be considered moving through the enemy implying if you move make that you would move in and out of the cloud in one move. I would make the commando take the wound as I would make them spend an extra adrenaline as if it were a cave-in spot. Both moving on and off the cave-in in one move.
 
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Lines J. Hutter
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I see, but is the corrosive gas defined as impassable terrain or enemy figure? Don't have the rules here, but it's not a figure and it's obviously passable goo
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Lines42 wrote:
I see, but is the corrosive gas defined as impassable terrain or enemy figure?
Neither, so the diagonal is allowed and since the space was never entered, the Commando doesn't suffer any damage.

-shnar
 
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michael peterson
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shnar wrote:
Lines42 wrote:
I see, but is the corrosive gas defined as impassable terrain or enemy figure?
Neither, so the diagonal is allowed and since the space was never entered, the Commando doesn't suffer any damage.

-shnar

Do you have a reference in the rules so I can share this with my group?
 
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The thing is:
if I remember correctly, the commando suffers a wound when he enters the cloud, not the space. As from the rulebook: "An active commando moving into or beginning a turn in a corrosive gas cloud gains one wound token".
He does not need to enter the space containing the marker, he just needs to enter the cloud.

So, in my example above, this cloud obviously touches the frame of the door on both sides. And unless a commando can thin himself to a nigh-incorporeal being I just don't see how he should go past that cloud without passing through it.

The commandos inability to make themselves incorporeal beings also prevents them from passing diagonally through two spaces containing objects, be it two clone tanks or two enemy. The sheer bulk of the commandos just does not allow it.
And while the corrosive gas cloud does not block movement (as it is not solid) it must be passed through in order to reach the desired target space - it must be entered (resulting in one wound) and left again.

That's how I see it - and that is why I placed the cloud exactly this way.
 
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Karl K
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Perturabo wrote:

The commandos inability to make themselves incorporeal beings also prevents them from passing diagonally through two spaces containing objects, be it two clone tanks or two enemy. The sheer bulk of the commandos just does not allow it.
And while the corrosive gas cloud does not block movement (as it is not solid) it must be passed through in order to reach the desired target space - it must be entered (resulting in one wound) and left again.

The "cloud" is defined as all the connected gas markers. Since no commando entered the square that contained the gas marker/cloud, then no one took damage.

By your logic, diagonal movement between a wall space and empty space shouldn't be possible either, because it's more like the commando steps on two squares to accomplish going around, which we know is not the case. He is transitioning from one square, into another diagonal square, with no regard for what is on the adjacent squares. The only thing that impedes that, as cited in the rules specifically, would be adjacent enemies, and adjacent walls.


The board and figures are a representation of whats "actually happening", and you have to imagine that everything (except for the figures) is actually much bigger. This is the same logic that "allows" shots to seem to curve around walls.

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michael peterson
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mrkarl wrote:
Perturabo wrote:

The commandos inability to make themselves incorporeal beings also prevents them from passing diagonally through two spaces containing objects, be it two clone tanks or two enemy. The sheer bulk of the commandos just does not allow it.
And while the corrosive gas cloud does not block movement (as it is not solid) it must be passed through in order to reach the desired target space - it must be entered (resulting in one wound) and left again.

The "cloud" is defined as all the connected gas markers. Since no commando entered the square that contained the gas marker/cloud, then no one took damage.

By your logic, diagonal movement between a wall space and empty space shouldn't be possible either, because it's more like the commando steps on two squares to accomplish going around, which we know is not the case. He is transitioning from one square, into another diagonal square, with no regard for what is on the adjacent squares. The only thing that impedes that, as cited in the rules specifically, would be adjacent enemies, and adjacent walls.


The board and figures are a representation of whats "actually happening", and you have to imagine that everything (except for the figures) is actually much bigger. This is the same logic that "allows" shots to seem to curve around walls.


The commando can do this because the space is open. There are many examples in the book where the commando can't move diagonally because that space is non-passable. For example, an agent can't move diagonally through an alien and a wall when the two spaces share a corner. The response to this is if there were two squares highlighted in red which shared only a corner, could the commando move through it?
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Perturabo wrote:
The thing is:
if I remember correctly, the commando suffers a wound when he enters the cloud, not the space. As from the rulebook: "An active commando moving into or beginning a turn in a corrosive gas cloud gains one wound token".
He does not need to enter the space containing the marker, he just needs to enter the cloud.

So, in my example above, this cloud obviously touches the frame of the door on both sides. And unless a commando can thin himself to a nigh-incorporeal being I just don't see how he should go past that cloud without passing through it.

The commandos inability to make themselves incorporeal beings also prevents them from passing diagonally through two spaces containing objects, be it two clone tanks or two enemy. The sheer bulk of the commandos just does not allow it.
And while the corrosive gas cloud does not block movement (as it is not solid) it must be passed through in order to reach the desired target space - it must be entered (resulting in one wound) and left again.

That's how I see it - and that is why I placed the cloud exactly this way.
How do you enter the cloud but not enter a space of the cloud?

-shnar
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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debawv wrote:
shnar wrote:
Lines42 wrote:
I see, but is the corrosive gas defined as impassable terrain or enemy figure?
Neither, so the diagonal is allowed and since the space was never entered, the Commando doesn't suffer any damage.

-shnar

Do you have a reference in the rules so I can share this with my group?
Sure. Corrosive Gas rules are defined on pg 10 of the rulebook as such:

Quote:
Corrosive Gas
Clouds of dangerous gases fill some sections of the
facility. These clouds are represented by groups of up to
nine corrosive gas terrain markers on the map. All the
corrosive gas markers that are touching form one cloud. A commando
moving into or beginning a turn in a corrosive gas cloud gains one
wound token.

Some room cards allow the overseer to place corrosive gas markers. He
can place each of these markers anywhere on the tiles that make up the
room, following three rules:

• No marker can be in a wall or objective space.
• The space for each marker must share a side with those for at least two
other markers. (They cannot be diagonal.)
• The markers provided by one room card must form a single cloud.
It clearly defines that a commando takes a wound if he enters the cloud, and it clearly defines the 'cloud' as being the corrosive gas markers.

Markers are defined earlier on the same page, and there is a bit talking about how a marker occupies a space. So a gas 'cloud' is a set of connected gas 'markers' on individual spaces.

Movement is defined on pg. 13, and it defines that a figure moves into spaces, and how one movement can be diagonal per turn:

Quote:
Only one diagonal movement can be used during a turn, and a figure
cannot move diagonally between two spaces occupied by non-friendly
figures or walls.

The only thing blocking diagonal movement is walls and non-friendly figures. Markers (and thus Corrosive Gas Markers and Clouds) do not block diagonal movement. Thus, a Commando can move diagonally between a wall and a marker and not suffer damage from that marker since he never entered that marker's space.

-shnar
 
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Karl K
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shnar wrote:

The only thing blocking diagonal movement is walls and non-friendly figures. Markers (and thus Corrosive Gas Markers and Clouds) do not block diagonal movement. Thus, a Commando can move diagonally between a wall and a marker and not suffer damage from that marker since he never entered that marker's space.

-shnar

Thanks shnar

@demawv: Rubble would also not work in this case because for rubble you pay an extra adrenaline when "leaving a rubble marker". The commando never entered the rubble marker, he moved from one empty square into another diagonal empty square.

demawv wrote:
The correlation between the non-passable terrain or enemy figures is if an enemy figure was in most right lower spot the commando wouldn't be able to make that diagonal move as it would be considered moving through the enemy implying if you move make that you would move in and out of the cloud in one move. I would make the commando take the wound as I would make them spend an extra adrenaline as if it were a cave-in spot. Both moving on and off the cave-in in one move.

The enemy and wall markers are the exception, not the rule. Assume you can always move diagonally between squares once per turn, EXCEPT between a combination of walls and enemy figures.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Just an aside, I really like L7OP's usage of diagonal movement. At first, I wasn't sure I liked it, since almost all my square-based-games allow diagonals (Space Hulk (third edition) being one of the exceptions). And limiting to just one seemed weird and gimicky. But now that I've played a few times, it works really well in keeping with a 'square' board but allowing some flexibility in trying to simulate a non-square environment. By allowing diagonals always, you get a lot of run-away situations (Descent is a bad culprit of this, where heroes squeeze through tiny diagonals all the time), but this rarely happens in L7OP and it's much more tactically interesting.

So, having said that, as Overseer, it's your job to make sure you setup your choke points appropriately so the commandos can't squeeze by like that

-shnar
 
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David Cuesta
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Your argument about commandos thinning themselves is an attempt to extrapolate the rules to real life situations and is not a valid. It might make sense but that its not what the rules say.

Also you could say that going thru the cloud for the brief time it takes to take that diagonal movement is not enough to damage the comandos.
 
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michael peterson
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QuimeraEC wrote:
Your argument about commandos thinning themselves is an attempt to extrapolate the rules to real life situations and is not a valid. It might make sense but that its not what the rules say.

Also you could say that going thru the cloud for the brief time it takes to take that diagonal movement is not enough to damage the comandos.

The rules do not address this; hence, the question. The address other situations like this but not these specific scenarios.
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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... but the rules do address this. They address moving diagonally, they address how markers and spaces interact, and they address how the Corrosive Gas marker damages a commando. With all these combined rules, a commando can diagonally move between a wall and a space containing a corrosive gas marker and not take damage, assuming that is the only diagonal he takes that turn.

-shnar
 
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Henrik Schmidt
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I guess we have another subject for the FAQ.
 
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LarkinVB wrote:
I guess we have another subject for the FAQ.
... why? The rules are quite clear about this...

-shnar
 
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David Cuesta
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As previous posters have stated, The rules cover this explictly. A commando can move diagonally once per turn as long as he doesn't move between enemy figures or wall. A corrosive gas token is nethier a wall nor an enemy figure. Therefore is legal to move diagonally between a wall and a gas cloud.

Also the commando was never on the space with the gas cloud. he would have been if he would have move two spaces, one forward and one to the right, but that's not what the comando did, he moved diagonally onto the space outisde the gascloud.

Edit: Spellcheck.
 
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shnar wrote:
LarkinVB wrote:
I guess we have another subject for the FAQ.
... why? The rules are quite clear about this...


Because it is not as intended by the designer and he just forgot to mention gas markers as exceptions like walls or enemies ? The rules as written are not perfect and prone to errors.
 
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LarkinVB wrote:
shnar wrote:
LarkinVB wrote:
I guess we have another subject for the FAQ.
... why? The rules are quite clear about this...


Because it is not as intended by the designer and he just forgot to mention gas markers as exceptions like walls or enemies ? The rules as written are not perfect and prone to errors.
it's not intended by the designer?

-shnar
 
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David Cuesta
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LarkinVB wrote:
shnar wrote:
LarkinVB wrote:
I guess we have another subject for the FAQ.
... why? The rules are quite clear about this...


Because it is not as intended by the designer and he just forgot to mention gas markers as exceptions like walls or enemies ? The rules as written are not perfect and prone to errors.

Im sorry, but i fail to see why its not written as intended by the designer. Could you provided a source for this?

Couldn't it be that the OS made a mistake? he could have easily placed the last 2 CG tokens (the tokens that are 4 squares away from the commandos) and placed them on hte right side of the clloud to avoid this situation?
 
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michael peterson
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shnar wrote:
LarkinVB wrote:
shnar wrote:
LarkinVB wrote:
I guess we have another subject for the FAQ.
... why? The rules are quite clear about this...


Because it is not as intended by the designer and he just forgot to mention gas markers as exceptions like walls or enemies ? The rules as written are not perfect and prone to errors.
it's not intended by the designer?

-shnar

Prove that it is. Show me where in the rules it talks about gas cloud and a wall sharing a corner? It doesn't. I don't quite understand why you and others feel to assert your "correctness" on others. It is clear there is a difference of opinions. Just let it go man. You don't need to force others into your misguided views of how to play a game of all things. I mod should lock this thread. It has been dragged into the gutter.
 
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debawv wrote:
shnar wrote:
LarkinVB wrote:
shnar wrote:
LarkinVB wrote:
I guess we have another subject for the FAQ.
... why? The rules are quite clear about this...


Because it is not as intended by the designer and he just forgot to mention gas markers as exceptions like walls or enemies ? The rules as written are not perfect and prone to errors.
it's not intended by the designer?

-shnar

Prove that it is. Show me where in the rules it talks about gas cloud and a wall sharing a corner? It doesn't. I don't quite understand why you and others feel to assert your "correctness" on others. It is clear there is a difference of opinions. Just let it go man. You don't need to force others into your misguided views of how to play a game of all things. I mod should lock this thread. It has been dragged into the gutter.
What? By whom?!?

You asked where in the rules this was stated, and I showed exactly where it was. Others have said to put it in a FAQ and I calmly asked why? It seemed pointless since it's quite clearly *in the rules*. If anyone is trying to "force others into a misguided views of how to play a game" it's those ignoring the rule book insisting the designer intended one way when he has never said so on any public forum and the rule book states how to play.

As for proving where it was in the rulebook this is defined, I did. You never responded to the quoted rules about how you had a problem with it. Are you ignoring that post? Or you just don't like it and so want to flex some admin muscles to silence those you don't like?

If anything I said offended, I apologize. It was never my intention to offend, I was just trying to explain by using the rules how to play this situation.

-shnar
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