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Subject: My tanks keep exploding! rss

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Andrew Kluck
United States
Hudson
Wisconsin
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Wasn't sure whether to put this in 'Strategy' or 'Rules', so first please check my work to make sure we're playing correctly.

Scenario H, Germans defending vs. Americans. Concealed cards cannot be placed on a an IG if it fires or moves. While it moves a tank uses black To Hit numbers and so does the IG that's shooting at it. You cannot place a conceal card on the tank, and it doesn't get any TEM for the card its on though it doesn't take the penalty for moving. So, an IG needs it's To Hit number (black if tanks hull down or moving) then instead of the number drawn it adds the RR (2 for this example) with the Effective Fire number (I think it's 2 for the German gun) say for a total 4. Then an RNC is drawn giving a hitting shot better than a 50% kill opportunity against the 1i/2S/3k Sherman (if I remember correctly).

The Sherman tank wasn't a great weapon but in this game at 212 points it's an outright liability. Other than retreating it out of range and killing the IG before moving in how are you supposed to deal with an IG? In my last game I did everything right, moved from hull down terrain to hull down terrain, suppressed the hell out of the IG location with tank and infantry fire, but inevitably the defender doesn't need to move and wants to burn as many fire cards as it can so I still only got 2 range markers in before I burst into flames on the first deck yet again.

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Michael Edwards
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Everett
Washington
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It's been a while since I've played my copy, but I know in general, it's perfectly expected that "…retreating it out of range and killing the IG before moving in…" is the normal real life tactic.

One of the jobs of infantry is to suppress anti-tank weapons, so that the infantry support tanks like the Sherman can get back to their job of beating up opposing infantry.
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Richard Pomeroy
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Hose the IG with the Browning 50 on top of the Sherman until the infantry get close enough to deal with it, then move up.
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Will Miner
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Good point Richard , the machine gun on that bad boy spits death,,and put that tank on a hill ,,,Katy bar the door!
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Andrew Kluck
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Hudson
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Thanks guys, I'll try that. If I recall correctly it's machine gun is firepower 7 at RR 0, so yeah, that'll work. I guess too the Sherman's main gun is slightly better, if the IG shoots once it can no longer take conceal cards so that evens the odds in the tanks favor.
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Mike Szarka
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Waterloo
Ontario
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But it's one of the reasons that I think in general the scenarios with IGs are less fun. Whoever gets the lucky hit first wins.

And it's for the same reason that I think Combat Commander is just fine without vehicles. As soon as you put them in, the focus is completely on the vehicles, not the PBI.
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Orion J.N. Winder
United States
Holly Hill
South Carolina
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mcszarka wrote:
But it's one of the reasons that I think in general the scenarios with IGs are less fun. Whoever gets the lucky hit first wins.

And it's for the same reason that I think Combat Commander is just fine without vehicles. As soon as you put them in, the focus is completely on the vehicles, not the PBI.

Which I believe is perfectly inline historically, as many accounts I've read that once an AFV or IG is found in ones vicinity it demanded far more attention that any other individual firebase. This is low level tactics we're talking about here.
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James Fung
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OrionDD wrote:
mcszarka wrote:
But it's one of the reasons that I think in general the scenarios with IGs are less fun. Whoever gets the lucky hit first wins.

And it's for the same reason that I think Combat Commander is just fine without vehicles. As soon as you put them in, the focus is completely on the vehicles, not the PBI.

Which I believe is perfectly inline historically, as many accounts I've read that once an AFV or IG is found in ones vicinity it demanded far more attention that any other individual firebase. This is low level tactics we're talking about here.
From playing Patton's Best (driving Shermans around France), first ID the threat. For AT guns, pick from your options: get out of range; fire smoke; or go hull down and hope your HE rounds get it before its AP rounds get you. A lot of the choice depended on the armor penetration of the weapon (hence ID'ing the threat) versus Sherman frontal armor (you didn't present side armor to an AP threat ever if you could help it). I would often engage PaK 38's and run screaming from 88mm PaK 43's.
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Roar Stensrud
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First of all, the US tank in this scenario isn't a Sherman, it's a Stuart. Still it has i3-s4-k5 in armor values. The values initially presented in the original post are the AFV's flank armor values. NEVER present these values unless you really have to in this scenario. The German gun only has an anti armor value of 1. Basically that means that if you keep your distance, the German player must draw a black 4 to kill the tank. And that is if the tank is not in any terrain. Against boxed effect numbers, the terrain value IS applied to the result. Unless you are on a hill or behind wall. Then you're hull down instead. Effectively halving the chances for a hit. Try to hide in woods. You do run the risk of getting bogged down,but the risk isn't that great with the Stuart. If you hide in woods, another 2 is deducted from the final effect. The German must effectively score a black 6 to kill the tank. Then you can use the vehicle MG and/or main gun. Even if the Stuart's main gun has a puny effect number, remember that the German gun defends with its boxed morale and panic values against ordnance fire.

The error most players do in this scenario when playing the attacker is that they don't realize that in this one, the AFV is not the hunter, it is the prey.

Let the infantry deal with the enemy gun -flanking it can be very effective- and delegate the AFV to a supporting role in good hiding. Until the IG is dealt with, that is.

R.
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