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Subject: So does "self-moderation" have to mean "Anything goes"? rss

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Moshe Callen
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I'm quoting Lynette's post from here:

Meerkat wrote:

For the record I don't want old moderation standards back.

However if we are going to "self moderate" than how are we going to do it?

Because apparently the tact Sue and Dar took, state publicly they have a problem with how things are being said and why, well that rubbed a lot of people wrong as well.

Maybe we need a new thread for this discussion but I think it is a one that should be addressed.

How should we self moderate?
She raises a good point.

To me it does me calling people on their behavior, and yes that includes making a new thread if need be.
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In absence of a universally accepted standard for what's not acceptable, my inclination is to say that yes, self moderated eventually devolves into anything goes.

Question, though- since I didn't really pay much attention to the call-out threads, who was being rubbed the wrong way? The people being called out or others?
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Mike Stiles
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whac3 wrote:


She raises a good point.

To me it does me calling people on their behavior, and yes that includes making anew thread if need be.

I'd go back to my point from the other thread. Self-moderation without any application of authority means that the people who care about the place get walked all over by the people who can't bother to give a damn.


~~~

Practically speaking, I think all we can do is continue to call people out and accept that it'll be a shitfest. Of course it'll rub people the wrong way, that's how you know it's working.
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What is the one thing that is missing in the typical form of moderation? Transparency. Having shown up after the admins were ridden out of town on a rail, I don't know what it was like here. In other haunts of mine, I know there was lots of secrecy for fear of egging people on and "It's being handled behind the scenes." The forum equivalent of pillories and stocks were frowned upon. So in the end, there would be a bunch of double-speak where the offenses are spoken of in vague terms and no hard lines are given. And from that, you get wild swings from loose moderation to strict moderation and back again. Nobody knows what to expect.

So here we are with self-moderation. And one thing you can say for it... it's transparent. You know who has the beef and why. You can see what the moderator thinks on the subject, since the moderator is us. Now, it's true that moderation comes with little authority or consequence, aside from some mass shunning.

Let's take the most recent round of call-out threads. How often do you think Tripp would put up with it before he just throws up his hands and says "Bag that!" and bails on the forum? I think it depends on how frequent and vehement the threads become. If it happens every time he opens his mouth because he just can't speak vanilla, then it may not take long. But if these self-moderation threads come up over and over and many in the forum speak up and say "Enough with these threads... you guys are conducting a witch hunt," then don't the hyper-moderators start getting some of their own?

From what I can see, this place is about the best-working forum I've come across. And the call-out threads are part of it. They aren't frequent, they aren't for hyper-petty things or simply for someone being on one side. Yes, airing it in public can occupy some of our time, but the alternative is having someone throw banhammers like Thor and then we waste time speculating on where someone went or who it was that put the hit out on them.
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GameCrossing wrote:
What is the one thing that is missing in the typical form of moderation? Transparency. Having shown up after the admins were ridden out of town on a rail, I don't know what it was like here. In other haunts of mine, I know there was lots of secrecy for fear of egging people on and "It's being handled behind the scenes." The forum equivalent of pillories and stocks were frowned upon. So in the end, there would be a bunch of double-speak where the offenses are spoken of in vague terms and no hard lines are given. And from that, you get wild swings from loose moderation to strict moderation and back again. Nobody knows what to expect.

So here we are with self-moderation. And one thing you can say for it... it's transparent. You know who has the beef and why. You can see what the moderator thinks on the subject, since the moderator is us. Now, it's true that moderation comes with little authority or consequence, aside from some mass shunning.

Let's take the most recent round of call-out threads. How often do you think Tripp would put up with it before he just throws up his hands and says "Bag that!" and bails on the forum? I think it depends on how frequent and vehement the threads become. If it happens every time he opens his mouth because he just can't speak vanilla, then it may not take long. But if these self-moderation threads come up over and over and many in the forum speak up and say "Enough with these threads... you guys are conducting a witch hunt," then don't the hyper-moderators start getting some of their own?

From what I can see, this place is about the best-working forum I've come across. And the call-out threads are part of it. They aren't frequent, they aren't for hyper-petty things or simply for someone being on one side. Yes, airing it in public can occupy some of our time, but the alternative is having someone throw banhammers like Thor and then we waste time speculating on where someone went or who it was that put the hit out on them.

FWIW, There cannot be enough threads about me to satisfy my craving for attention. I'm planning a new series of threads starting soon. Here's the working titles:

"Who tweaked her hoo-hah?"

"That Hillary Clinton reminds me of this Cookie I knew who worked the streets"

"Why do most wimmin' have to act like such aphrodisiacal tennis courts?"

"Man, female gamers sure get their their rosebuds all knicker-twisted when they lose"


That ought to satisfy everyone who is outraged by the word-that-must-not-be-written-spoken-thought-of-referred-to-or invoked.

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DWTripp wrote:
GameCrossing wrote:
What is the one thing that is missing in the typical form of moderation? Transparency. Having shown up after the admins were ridden out of town on a rail, I don't know what it was like here. In other haunts of mine, I know there was lots of secrecy for fear of egging people on and "It's being handled behind the scenes." The forum equivalent of pillories and stocks were frowned upon. So in the end, there would be a bunch of double-speak where the offenses are spoken of in vague terms and no hard lines are given. And from that, you get wild swings from loose moderation to strict moderation and back again. Nobody knows what to expect.

So here we are with self-moderation. And one thing you can say for it... it's transparent. You know who has the beef and why. You can see what the moderator thinks on the subject, since the moderator is us. Now, it's true that moderation comes with little authority or consequence, aside from some mass shunning.

Let's take the most recent round of call-out threads. How often do you think Tripp would put up with it before he just throws up his hands and says "Bag that!" and bails on the forum? I think it depends on how frequent and vehement the threads become. If it happens every time he opens his mouth because he just can't speak vanilla, then it may not take long. But if these self-moderation threads come up over and over and many in the forum speak up and say "Enough with these threads... you guys are conducting a witch hunt," then don't the hyper-moderators start getting some of their own?

From what I can see, this place is about the best-working forum I've come across. And the call-out threads are part of it. They aren't frequent, they aren't for hyper-petty things or simply for someone being on one side. Yes, airing it in public can occupy some of our time, but the alternative is having someone throw banhammers like Thor and then we waste time speculating on where someone went or who it was that put the hit out on them.

FWIW, There cannot be enough threads about me to satisfy my craving for attention. I'm planning a new series of threads starting soon. Here's the working titles:

"Who tweaked her hoo-hah?"

"That Hillary Clinton reminds me of this Cookie I knew who worked the streets"

"Why do most wimmin' have to act like such aphrodisiacal tennis courts?"

"Man, female gamers sure get their their rosebuds all knicker-twisted when they lose"


That ought to satisfy everyone who is outraged by the word-that-must-not-be-written-spoken-thought-of-referred-to-or invoked.


That would totally be like the Tripp I used to read all the time!

Tripp rocks!!

Darilian
 
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Here's a crazy idea--and I have absolutely no control over this--but, have you guys ever considered making Tripp a moderator? Heh, I can already here the RSP liberals screaming at their monitors, but stick with me for a moment and consider this logic...

If Tripp becomes a mod, conservative users would benefit by having a guaranteed sympathetic ear to appeal problems to--someone who would at the very least put in a good word for them if a sanction decision is being made. Liberal users, however, would benefit even more since Tripp with a admin badge would be held to a higher standard of behavior. He would, for example, need to encourage new users to participate regardless of their political stripes, and he would have to tone down his language to a Walt Disney level: "Gosh willikers Darilian! Some times you really frost my cupcakes!" And Tripp? He gets an admin badge, access to the mod screens AND some power over us plebs in the mob.

I know it sounds crazy, but more than once I've seen businesses diffuse a stressful situation by promoting a person upward: It works. Think about it anyways.
------------------------------
I, however, still like my thunderdome idea (on the other thread) in which two users--angry rams bashing their horns together--can fight a duel with the loser being banished for an pre-agreed to number of days. It would be the ultimate RSP blood sport. I estimate that with such an option the "Revisiting RSP Moderation" thread would be 17 pages shorter and 85% on topic. In addition to the intellectual and dexterity games (mentioned on other thread) that could act as an arena for such a match, one quick, easy and utterly neutral method would be to use the BGG roll feature, say, high roll on a D-20 wins.

Just don't cheat and sneak in a +5 Holy Avenger. 1d20 = (8) = 8
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whac3 wrote:
I'm quoting Lynette's post from here:

Meerkat wrote:

For the record I don't want old moderation standards back.

However if we are going to "self moderate" than how are we going to do it?

Because apparently the tact Sue and Dar took, state publicly they have a problem with how things are being said and why, well that rubbed a lot of people wrong as well.

Maybe we need a new thread for this discussion but I think it is a one that should be addressed.

How should we self moderate?
She raises a good point.

To me it does me calling people on their behavior, and yes that includes making anew thread if need be.

I thought self moderation was ya know, not responding to trollish behavior. It's not like the views expressed in RSP are suddenly going to permeate our government and suddenly we're stuck with Hitler because no one wanted to stand up and say something.

Instead of sending a quick Geekmail saying "hey, i found this offense" we get this passive/agressive call-out bullshit where people aren't actually ya know, called out.

But apparently people lack self control.
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Fuck it.

Let's have Dance-offs.
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Maybe there's an opportunity for people who start threads to title them

[Moderated]

As a cue to people posting in that thread to use some higher level of civility - no personal attacks, no inflammatory language. They could even state what they consider in-bounds and out when they start the thread.
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CrankyPants wrote:
Maybe there's an opportunity for people who start threads to title them

[Moderated]
As a cue to people posting in that thread to use some higher level of civility - no personal attacks, no inflammatory language. They could even state what they consider in-bounds and out when they start the thread.

That's pretty good CP. I don't know if it would work, but it's simple, practical and wouldn't require another forum.
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Calling out another posters behavior is about as toothless as it gets. I fact, it will have the opposite effect as both parties dig in and refuse to give any ground or come to any mutual understanding. There are several notable recent examples of this. Self moderation is a joke.
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ejmowrer wrote:
Calling out another posters behavior is about as toothless as it gets. I fact, it will have the opposite effect as both parties dig in and prepare to refuse to give any ground or come to any mutual understanding. There are several notable recent examples of this. Self moderation is a joke.

We could always watch other people not actually ignore the malefactor >
 
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Is there an official list of offensive words we're not supposed to use?
Or is that an oversimplification?
 
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Gialmere wrote:
CrankyPants wrote:
Maybe there's an opportunity for people who start threads to title them

[Moderated]
As a cue to people posting in that thread to use some higher level of civility - no personal attacks, no inflammatory language. They could even state what they consider in-bounds and out when they start the thread.

That's pretty good CP. I don't know if it would work, but it's simple, practical and wouldn't require another forum.
That's what they do on some reddit subforums (label posts as [serious]). But then some moderators actually go in and delete non-serious replies.

Given the large amount of deleted posts I see in those threads, doubt it would work with the enforcement...
 
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dennisthebadger wrote:
Is there an official list of offensive words we're not supposed to use?
Or is that an oversimplification?
Worse - it's a distraction.

A basic human principle: everybody games "the system" (every system) to gain an advantage.

Rules create rules lawyers, and people who dedicate their time to testing the limits. In a forum this makes moderation expensive, which in the case of RSP would just hand it back to the "shock jocks" (most likely), or lead to it being shut down.

I suggested a rules-free moderation approach in the other thread. It's based on the only principle that works with people who are deliberately disruptive: negative conditioning - in this case via cumulative bans that get longer each time for repeat offenders.

In the end they would learn to behave properly in public places, or disappear forever.
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windsagio wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
Calling out another posters behavior is about as toothless as it gets. I fact, it will have the opposite effect as both parties dig in and prepare to refuse to give any ground or come to any mutual understanding. There are several notable recent examples of this. Self moderation is a joke.

We could always watch other people not actually ignore the malefactor >

Why do you think it's only guys who do this? That's so sexist.
 
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I am not sure Self moderation is a euphemism for anything goes to most who support it, but I suspect it is for some. I suspect for most there is a naive assumption that if people are allowed to do what they like they will act like mature adults, and their good nature is exploited by those who want to act like naughty children shouting "nipples" to get a rise out of grandad.
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"Self Moderation" in the context of a "place" like RSP is a contradiction in terms.

Agreements form naturally in networks where everyone is trying to achieve the same goal, or understand the same things through discussion.

RSP is a forum intended to contain all the non-gaming disagreements on the site. A most unlikely place to reach a general agreement on standards of behavior or on which topics are appropriate. Or agreement on anything at all.
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The answer is for people to just calm the fuck down. I haven't even been here more than a couple years and I've seen the cycles of tension and chilling rise and fall many times. People get worked up, then shit blows over. This whole moderation nonsense is because people aren't happy things are naturally self regulating *fast enough* for their liking.

This is an entirely voluntary association of people in an entirely voluntary setting. If you know someone pisses you off just don't click on their threads or respond to them. Do that little block thing if you have to. But wait until *you* have calmed down.

If someone's behavior offends enough people they'll ignore the bastard/bastardess eventually and the frothing ninny will get bored and wander off. It's happened before it'll happen again. People just need to have a modicum of patience and self control. This is aimed at the people responding/the 'caller outter' people. If someone's behaving childishly the solution isn't to behave childishly back.
 
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Shadrach wrote:
The answer is for people to just calm the fuck down. I haven't even been here more than a couple years and I've seen the cycles of tension and chilling rise and fall many times. People get worked up, then shit blows over. This whole moderation nonsense is because people aren't happy things are naturally self regulating *fast enough* for their liking.

This is an entirely voluntary association of people in an entirely voluntary setting. If you know someone pisses you off just don't click on their threads or respond to them. Do that little block thing if you have to. But wait until *you* have calmed down.

If someone's behavior offends enough people they'll ignore the bastard/bastardess eventually and the frothing ninny will get bored and wander off. It's happened before it'll happen again. People just need to have a modicum of patience and self control. This is aimed at the people responding/the 'caller outter' people. If someone's behaving childishly the solution isn't to behave childishly back.
They should ignore the, the odd thing is they do not. But I do find it kind of ironic that you are telling people they need a modicum of self control when outing people with no self control.
 
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MWChapel wrote:
Why don't we have an RSP that works similar to the BGG blogging system, where the OP can delete responses? Then it can be moderated by the OP.
Yep I like that idea, even with the obvious abuse (and knowing who one of the main targets will be).
 
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MWChapel wrote:
Why don't we have an RSP that works similar to the BGG blogging system, where the OP can delete responses? Then it can be moderated by the OP.
What if someone then just deletes whatever he or she disagrees with?
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RSP is neither a bog nor a Geeklist. Those are soliloquies, not conversations.
 
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whac3 wrote:
RSP is neither a bog nor a Geeklist. Those are soliloquies, not conversations.
Is that not what we usually have anyway?

"Cheese come from people
"No it does not"
"I did not come here for a conversation, now fuck off".

As I said there may be issues that some may not like, but it's not as if we really have anything other then slanging matches anyway.
 
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