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They need more training.
Lots of it.
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I couldn't help laughing last night when I saw this story. Oopsie.
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The BBC has a different version, but still involves blowing themselves up:

Quote:
At least 21 insurgents have been killed in central Iraq after a car bomb was detonated accidentally, officials say.

The explosion occurred in the early afternoon on a desert road, about 20km (12 miles) from the city of Samarra, security sources told the BBC.

The explosives-filled vehicle was being escorted from the insurgents' compound to a main road when it blew up.

The area around the mainly Sunni city of Samarra, in Salah al-Din province, has long been an insurgent stronghold.
 
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When it comes to the Middle East, no one in the region believes anything the BBC says., although for political reasons they will sometimes pretend to.
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Boaty McBoatface
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whac3 wrote:
When it comes to the Middle East, no one in the region believes anything the BBC says., although for political reasons they will sometimes pretend to.
Here we go again.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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There is a poetic justice about (one version) of this story.

But I cannot help but wonder whose side they are on, and why we should back either side.
 
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Larry Haskell
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Just think of it as evolution in action.

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jmilum wrote:
The BBC has a different version, but still involves blowing themselves up:

Quote:
At least 21 insurgents have been killed in central Iraq after a car bomb was detonated accidentally, officials say.

The explosion occurred in the early afternoon on a desert road, about 20km (12 miles) from the city of Samarra, security sources told the BBC.

The explosives-filled vehicle was being escorted from the insurgents' compound to a main road when it blew up.

The area around the mainly Sunni city of Samarra, in Salah al-Din province, has long been an insurgent stronghold.

While in theory I prefer truth, in this case I think we should declare the version BJ heard to be correct regardless of whether it corresponds to what actually happened.
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Chad Ellis
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slatersteven wrote:
But I cannot help but wonder whose side they are on, and why we should back either side.

One does not have to back a side to have an opinion about mass murder of noncombatants via suicide bomb.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
But I cannot help but wonder whose side they are on, and why we should back either side.

One does not have to back a side to have an opinion about mass murder of noncombatants via suicide bomb.
True, I was of course referring to calls for intervention of one kind or another in other places. There is an irony in that the very people who we fought in Iraq are the very people we wish to arm in Syria.

And what will happen to those arms?
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There's a place for everyone in the grand scheme of life, even 1512 simpleminded virgins.
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whac3 wrote:
When it comes to the Middle East, no one in the region believes anything the BBC says., although for political reasons they will sometimes pretend to.

No one at all? You've asked every single inhabitant of the Middle East, and every single one has said that they don't believe anything the BBC says? Not even the soccer results? That's some pretty impressive research. I salute you for your dedication.
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Ed_the_Red wrote:
whac3 wrote:
When it comes to the Middle East, no one in the region believes anything the BBC says., although for political reasons they will sometimes pretend to.

No one at all? You've asked every single inhabitant of the Middle East, and every single one has said that they don't believe anything the BBC says? Not even the soccer results? That's some pretty impressive research. I salute you for your dedication.
Oh, go take a flying leap. Yes, I literally interviewed everyone here and they all said you're an idiot.
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Ed_the_Red wrote:
whac3 wrote:
When it comes to the Middle East, no one in the region believes anything the BBC says., although for political reasons they will sometimes pretend to.

No one at all? You've asked every single inhabitant of the Middle East, and every single one has said that they don't believe anything the BBC says? Not even the soccer results? That's some pretty impressive research. I salute you for your dedication.

I and a couple of teenagers helped Moshe. We just finished asking everyone in the Middle East, a couple of weeks ago. We asked about everything, including the football scores.

We'll have to do another check, but every single individual answered about every single thing the BBC publishes such that they don't believe it. One person indicated that he kinda' believed the football scores but then crossed it out and also indicated he doesn't believe even the football scores.
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whac3 wrote:
Ed_the_Red wrote:
whac3 wrote:
When it comes to the Middle East, no one in the region believes anything the BBC says., although for political reasons they will sometimes pretend to.

No one at all? You've asked every single inhabitant of the Middle East, and every single one has said that they don't believe anything the BBC says? Not even the soccer results? That's some pretty impressive research. I salute you for your dedication.
Oh, go take a flying leap. Yes, I literally interviewed everyone here and they all said you're an idiot.

Imagine the cognitive dissonance that would be caused if the BBC said I was an idiot too!
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whac3 wrote:
When it comes to the Middle East, no one in the region believes anything the BBC says., although for political reasons they will sometimes pretend to.


Yeah, I wouldn't believe them if they said Liverpool beat Arsenal 5-1 either
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Ed_the_Red wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Ed_the_Red wrote:
whac3 wrote:
When it comes to the Middle East, no one in the region believes anything the BBC says., although for political reasons they will sometimes pretend to.

No one at all? You've asked every single inhabitant of the Middle East, and every single one has said that they don't believe anything the BBC says? Not even the soccer results? That's some pretty impressive research. I salute you for your dedication.
Oh, go take a flying leap. Yes, I literally interviewed everyone here and they all said you're an idiot.

Imagine the cognitive dissonance that would be caused if the BBC said I was an idiot too!

What if the BBC reported that Middle Easterners believe that you're an idiot. This situation is a true paradox.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
But I cannot help but wonder whose side they are on, and why we should back either side.

One does not have to back a side to have an opinion about mass murder of noncombatants via suicide bomb.

Serious question: would you have the same opinion about the mass murder of non-combatants by other means?
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The whole thing is just sad. Why do the terrorists feel the need to do what they do? Most Muslims are just as appalled as the rest of us, I like to imagine.

But I would rather they blew themselves up by accident than blowing up innocent people.
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tesuji wrote:
The whole thing is just sad. Why do the terrorists feel the need to do what they do? Most Muslims are just as appalled as the rest of us, I like to imagine.

But I would rather they blew themselves up by accident than blowing up innocent people.
Why does anyone feel it's OK to kill the innocent in war? Why do we feel the need to execute people, who turn out to be innocent, due to a miscarriage of justice? Why do people feel the need to kill when they think they are under threat?

People kill (including suicide bombers) becasue they know they are right, and are doing what needs to be done.
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Ed_the_Red wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
But I cannot help but wonder whose side they are on, and why we should back either side.

One does not have to back a side to have an opinion about mass murder of noncombatants via suicide bomb.

Serious question: would you have the same opinion about the mass murder of non-combatants by other means?

That's pure begging the question.

When non-combatants are killed in battle, it is not murder, nor the weasel expression mass murder. (Mass murder and massacre have been so falsely and over-used in this conflict to become meaningless and a flag for implicit intellectual dishonesty.)


Never in the annals of mankind has a major battle unfolded wherein unintended targets have not been struck. With every modern military technical connveince at her disposal, Israel attempts to avoid as best it can civilian casualties. As just one example, if electronic intelligence (ELINT) shows that civilians are in danger, the operation is immediately aborted regardless of the value of the target of opportunity.

Unfortunately, the state of warfare is not such that zero civilian deaths is an achievable standard. Although satellite-guided ordinance is a boon to preventing civilian casualties, it is the nature of warfare that bombs go aside or that wrong targets are hit.

Unsurprisingly, this fantastical and unprecedented standard of military performance is only imposed upon Israel. I am not aware of any military anywhere ever that has put more emphasis and effort on and into minimizing civilian casualties, to the lasting credit of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF).


The salient point is the explicit and purposeful seeking out of specifically non-combatant targets, i.e. the stereotypical terrorist attack.

Even so, I am not wholly convinced that terrorism, as a general concept, is not a legitimate tool of warfare, whether one suicide-bombs pizza parlours or carpet bombs civilian populations. But, that's neither here nor there.

Personally, I think it's the height of childishness, and willful manipulation, to use terrorism and then whine about it coming back at you. At the height of suicide bombings in Israel, I think the Israelis had the moral right and obligation to bomb Gaza into the stone age. They didn't. They demonstrated restraint I have never seen any nation ever anywhere demonstrate, for years of bombs and missiles.

Then, that non-combatants are killed in such military operations is at least to be expected. Frankly, that every time the IDF fires off a rifle round is described as mass murder, is not only tiresome it has come to the point that people have stopped taking the Palestinian narrative seriously.


Now, if all combatants would agree to meet in fenced-off areas of the desert, then all of Mankind can put this notion of non-combatant casualties behind us.
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slatersteven wrote:
tesuji wrote:
The whole thing is just sad. Why do the terrorists feel the need to do what they do? Most Muslims are just as appalled as the rest of us, I like to imagine.

But I would rather they blew themselves up by accident than blowing up innocent people.
Why does anyone feel it's OK to kill the innocent in war? Why do we feel the need to execute people, who turn out to be innocent, due to a miscarriage of justice? Why do people feel the need to kill when they think they are under threat?

People kill (including suicide bombers) becasue they know they are right, and are doing what needs to be done.

What is the definition of innocent people? The people that didn't vote for the government that runs the country? Everyone not in the army? Sometimes I think it's a lot of bollocks to divide the population of any country into two groups, one which it's ok to kill and one which it's NOT ok to kill. I mean, you're at war with a nation / group / country / what ever, and why shouldn't you be allowed to kill anyone from said group?
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Xelforp wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
tesuji wrote:
The whole thing is just sad. Why do the terrorists feel the need to do what they do? Most Muslims are just as appalled as the rest of us, I like to imagine.

But I would rather they blew themselves up by accident than blowing up innocent people.
Why does anyone feel it's OK to kill the innocent in war? Why do we feel the need to execute people, who turn out to be innocent, due to a miscarriage of justice? Why do people feel the need to kill when they think they are under threat?

People kill (including suicide bombers) becasue they know they are right, and are doing what needs to be done.

What is the definition of innocent people? The people that didn't vote for the government that runs the country? Everyone not in the army? Sometimes I think it's a lot of bollocks to divide the population of any country into two groups, one which it's ok to kill and one which it's NOT ok to kill. I mean, you're at war with a nation / group / country / what ever, and why shouldn't you be allowed to kill anyone from said group?
That is my point. Anyone can justify any killing as "a necessary evil" and "doing what needs to be done" for " the good of ...". They do not think it is OK, they think it is "a means to an justifiable end".
 
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I wasn't begging the question, just asking one.

I agree that non-combatants being killed (by accident) in battle would not and should not be described as murder. But even in war, murder occurs.

However, I was struck by my own reaction. I did think that the suicide bombers in question got what they deserved (and thought it was quite funny too). But I then wondered if I would have the same reaction to analagous situations, and I don't think I would.

To put it into a historical context, would I have thought that it the crew of a bomber in WW2 flying off to bomb Coventry, Dresden or Hiroshima crashed on take off and got blown up by their own bombs would be either funny or deserved? I wouldn't.

In the present, if a cruise missile exploded on the launch pad and killed its operators before they sent it on its way to destroy a wedding party in Yemen, what would my reaction be?

Now, you could argue that the Yemeni wedding party was misidentified as a legitimate target, and so the intent to attack civilians was not there. Of course, this makes no difference to the dead people. But given that those firing off the missiles know that at least some of them are going to kill innocents, perhaps they are a little bit guilty? What number/percentage of civilian deaths make an attack justifiable? Is it only 100% deliberate civilian deaths (as in a terrorist attack on a market or bus) that is so awful? If there's one legitimate military target included, how many civilian deaths is ok?

I wasn't particularly thinking about Israel. In terms of their military activities they obviously have an impossible job, given the way fighters can, and do, melt into the civilian population. Having said that, I also have some sympathy - or at least understanding (for I don't think that violence will create a lasting, sustainable, solution) - of the position of the terrorist/freedom fighters, how else are they supposed to hit back against a much stronger force? What would I do in their situation, or at least in the situation that they perceive?

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