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Subject: Would Andromeda be as good in Anarch? rss

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Anton Ribbenstedt
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What if Andromeda would have been an Anarch identity, do you think she still would have been as strong and why/why not?
 
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Adam Morgan
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A big part of the reason Andromeda is so good is because of her access to all the Criminal cards without having to spend influence. Seeing 9 cards will always be nice but I don't think she'd be nearly as strong as she is now.
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Grant Cain
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Almost. Criminal is the best place for her because of all of the in-house events that are easy to use early game. As the game progresses though, there will be enough neutral cards for this argument to be made that you could stick her ability into any faction and it would work just as well.
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Michael Redston
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This is just a guess, but I think that if Andy was anarch or even shaper then Gabe would be the ID with the highest winrate.
 
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Wesley Austin Kinslow
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The issue with Anarch isn't the IDs - it's the card base and influence system and how Anarch points were allocated in the core set.

Some of the best/most splashed cards from Anarch: Datasucker, Mimic, Corroder, Yog.0, Parasite - there are others but I won't go too deep into it.

Just imagine how things would be right now if Corroder was a 3-4 influence card. Or Yog.0 at 2 influence... suddenly Shaper/Criminal decks are pinched for influence instead of splashing damn near everything they want. You can either play Shaper or Criminal (that both have effective card draw/search, btw) and have the potential to splash all the best cards from Anarch OR you can play Anarch and spend all of your influence on Account Siphon or SMC for a 2-3 card splash. Even if you import in some of the great breakers from the other factions into Anarch, you have to find a way to draw into them because you can't just magically fetch them up like Crim/Shaper can. This isn't even TOUCHING the issue of Anarch not having the economy options that Criminal/Shaper have. It's a little silly that Anarch doesn't get the income options OR the card fetch that the other two factions have.

I'm sure Anarch IDs will have their time in the sun - and they're not completely miserable now - but right now I don't see much reason to play them considering the other two factions have such a flexible card base to work out of.

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Greg Nordeng
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wedgeex wrote:
The issue with Anarch isn't the IDs - it's the card base and influence system and how Anarch points were allocated in the core set.

Some of the best/most splashed cards from Anarch: Datasucker, Mimic, Corroder, Yog.0, Parasite - there are others but I won't go too deep into it.

Just imagine how things would be right now if Corroder was a 3-4 influence card. Or Yog.0 at 2 influence... suddenly Shaper/Criminal decks are pinched for influence instead of splashing damn near everything they want. You can either play Shaper or Criminal (that both have effective card draw/search, btw) and have the potential to splash all the best cards from Anarch OR you can play Anarch and spend all of your influence on Account Siphon or SMC for a 2-3 card splash. Even if you import in some of the great breakers from the other factions into Anarch, you have to find a way to draw into them because you can't just magically fetch them up like Crim/Shaper can. This isn't even TOUCHING the issue of Anarch not having the economy options that Criminal/Shaper have. It's a little silly that Anarch doesn't get the income options OR the card fetch that the other two factions have.

I'm sure Anarch IDs will have their time in the sun - and they're not completely miserable now - but right now I don't see much reason to play them considering the other two factions have such a flexible card base to work out of.


Ya, this. It really is a shame on the influence for Anarchs. Corroder should be 3 like Gordian and Garrote. Yog - 2, datasucker - 2.

Anarch is strong, and their really good at what they do, but they are at a slight disadvantage. They take a little bit of an "influence tax" where your getting slightly less quality per influence point importing non-anarch cards compared to exporting them. The irony is that finding breakers and breaking ICE is not Anarch's strength, even though they have some of the most efficient breakers in the game. I don't need a full suite of breakers in my Noise deck. In fact Mimic is the only non AI breaker I play, more breakers just means less "Anarch fun".

9 cards in Anarch just doesn't pack the same punch. Maybe some econ, a Djinn, and a Grimoire would be a good start, but Anarchs strength is kind of grinding the corp over the long game. Andy is ready to punch you in the face by at least turn 2 with special order/inside Job/Account Siphon/Emergency Shutdown, and keep you pinned down for several turns in the early game. The 9 cards better suits the criminal cards and playstyle.

Side thought - I think an awesome Anarch ID would be, "Once per turn you may add 1 additional virus token to a virus with at least one virus token"

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wedgeex wrote:
Some of the best/most splashed cards from Anarch: Datasucker, Mimic, Corroder, Yog.0, Parasite - there are others but I won't go too deep into it.

Presumably this will never be fixed, but it sounds like an equivalent fix would be giving the Anarch IDs extra influence. How much influence do you think Reina Roja or Noise would need to be as dominant as Andromeda? 20? 25?
 
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Jeff Gum
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Nords3x4 wrote:
Side thought - I think an awesome Anarch ID would be, "Once per turn you may add 1 additional virus token to a virus with at least one virus token"

Imps that never run out, you say?
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Zeb
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DrTall wrote:
wedgeex wrote:
Some of the best/most splashed cards from Anarch: Datasucker, Mimic, Corroder, Yog.0, Parasite - there are others but I won't go too deep into it.

Presumably this will never be fixed, but it sounds like an equivalent fix would be giving the Anarch IDs extra influence. How much influence do you think Reina Roja or Noise would need to be as dominant as Andromeda? 20? 25?

That isn't something that needs to be fixed and that would be a drastic change anyway.
 
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Scott Rubin
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Christkid5 wrote:
Almost. Criminal is the best place for her because of all of the in-house events that are easy to use early game. As the game progresses though, there will be enough neutral cards for this argument to be made that you could stick her ability into any faction and it would work just as well.
This is exactly correct. The advantage of Criminal is that it is based on Events. With a starting hand of 9 cards you want to play 4 of them on turn 1. With only 5 starting credits you likely can't afford to install 4 hardware/programs turn 1. You want to play 4 Events, and Criminal is all about that.

Even though the other factions have events, they aren't necessarily usable or playable on turn 1. Those that are, such as Maker's Eye, are often splashed into Andromeda decks anyway. But most of those events are Criminal. If you made Andy a Shaper, you would not have the influence to get enough events that are useful on turn 1.
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Brodie
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Tekkactus wrote:
Nords3x4 wrote:
Side thought - I think an awesome Anarch ID would be, "Once per turn you may add 1 additional virus token to a virus with at least one virus token"

Imps that never run out, you say?

More like Imps that force an immediate virus purge.
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Greg Nordeng
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DrTall wrote:
wedgeex wrote:
Some of the best/most splashed cards from Anarch: Datasucker, Mimic, Corroder, Yog.0, Parasite - there are others but I won't go too deep into it.

Presumably this will never be fixed, but it sounds like an equivalent fix would be giving the Anarch IDs extra influence. How much influence do you think Reina Roja or Noise would need to be as dominant as Andromeda? 20? 25?

I actually think this is a really bad way at looking at fixing the problem. No offense meant of course, but adding more influence is not solving the problem of making Anarch better. Would more influence make them stronger? Of course, but it's looking at the problem the wrong way I think.

Here's the difference. The splashed Anarch cards make Criminals better Criminals, and Shapers better Shapers. A mistake I see is people splashing influence in Anarch to make Anarch better at being Criminal or Shaper. So yes, with more influence you could make them better at other factions, but then, Id rather just play that other faction with the super cheap influence Anarch cards.

I just think the Anarch card pool needs to get bigger and stronger. More high risk/high reward tricks unique to Anarch's crazy playstyle are needed. There are not too many cards like this outside of Anarch, so it's hard to use influence to make them better Anarchs.
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Greg Nordeng
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Tekkactus wrote:
Nords3x4 wrote:
Side thought - I think an awesome Anarch ID would be, "Once per turn you may add 1 additional virus token to a virus with at least one virus token"

Imps that never run out, you say?

Ya, it would be a strong but limited ID. Might force cards like Cyberdex into more decks.
 
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Nords3x4 wrote:
No offense meant of course, but adding more influence is not solving the problem of making Anarch better.

None taken! Happy to discuss :)

Nords3x4 wrote:
A mistake I see is people splashing influence in Anarch to make Anarch better at being Criminal or Shaper. So yes, with more influence you could make them better at other factions, but then, Id rather just play that other faction with the super cheap influence Anarch cards.

Hmmm this is the crux of it. Maybe I don't know what the "true" Anarch playstyle is. What is the "feel" of Anarch? I see that on paper they are about destruction (Imp, Parasite, Singularity, Scrubber, ...) and recklessness (Stimhack, DLR, Joshua B, Activist Support, ...), but in practice what does it really mean?

I can look at a Kate deck and say "That's not a Shaper deck because [reasons]" but I don't know how to do that for Anarch.
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Aaron Freeman
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Anarchs have three emerging playstyles, which would be ice destruction, credit denial and bad publicity exploitation. Right now, I think really only Ice Destruction is very viable, and it is still underplayed.
 
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StarSix wrote:
Anarchs have three emerging playstyles, which would be ice destruction, credit denial and bad publicity exploitation. Right now, I think really only Ice Destruction is very viable, and it is still underplayed.

Hmmm..... from what I've seen Shapers do ice destruction and bad publicity exploitation better than Anarch, and Criminals do credit denial better than Anarch. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?
 
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Erik Twice
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Agent Archer wrote:
More like Imps that force an immediate virus purge.
You mean, like every Imp ever?
 
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Greg Nordeng
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I am not claiming to be a master of Anarchs by any stretch, but I have been doing pretty well with my Noise deck recently, and think I have learned a fair amount about "what they do".

Anarch's play style is to control the game by owning board position and getting themselves in position for timely running.

Shaper and Crim are pretty straight forward. Crim: Rush, Denial, smash your head into things until you run into agendas. Shaper: Build and run (on the fly since C&C)

I think in general you have to "set" plays up a lot further in advance then with criminal or Shaper.

Random Example: Let's assume HQ is ICED pretty good with a remote server double stacked with unrezzed ICE, and 1 piece of unrezzed ICE on archives. There is a Tollbooth on R&D (going to see some big ICE on R&D when playing Anarch) and you have a Keyhole in play with a clone chip and Grimoire, parasite in trash, and in hand you have surge, datasucker, Crypsis and Stimhack.

A lot of people will just melt through the Tollbooth ASAP and start keyholing like mad. This might work, but it could be worse for the corp if the runner plays it right. What I like to do is wait for them to get something in the server they think is safe to score. Before the start of my turn, install Parasite (mill) on TB, on start of turn it now has 2 counters.

Click 1 - Play Datasucker (mill)
Click 2 - Surge datascuker or parasite
Click 3 - Activate Keyhole, melt tollbooth.
Click 4 - Activate Keyhole
Now the corp has some serious bad decisions to make. Score the agenda and let me dig for another 4 clicks, or they could ICE R&D in which next turn I can install Cryspsis (mill), click virus and stimhack remote. Even if I am unable to access somehow, they just spent all that money. Can they rez R&D ICE now (it's likely big)? There have been 3 new mills also, can they rez R&D, Archives, and Remote? Not likely at all.

Without waiting to make this move until corp puts an agenda down, the corp will just keep the agenda safe and sound in HQ until they think their R&D is safe again.

It's a lot more complicated of a play style I think, requires a lot of setting the corp up and using cards at the right time. With Criminal and Shaper the obvious play is usually the right play, with Anarch it often isn't. You need to figure out if you can get more mileage out the combos.

Lastly, you have to just say "eff it" a lot more. I.E. I know that's an archer, I know I have a djinn with datasucker and imp on it, but "eff it". Rez it, sac that agenda, and pay the extra money (reina/Xanadu) or just get it rezzed so I can destroy it later. Brain Damage? Don't make me laugh, your not a real Anarch unless you come back from a game with half a brain or less. Play as close to the edge as you possibly can without crippling yourself. This is more similar to Criminal, but crims will have program trashing be more devastating, so I believe you can afford to be even more aggressive with Anarchs.

I think Anarch is my favorite faction by far, makes me think the most, and is the most rewarding to succeed with. Going to be more even more fun as they get more toys.
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That's an interesting philosophical position, that I haven't really heard before. I'll have to think about it some more, but thanks for your post.
 
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Greg Nordeng
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DrTall wrote:
That's an interesting philosophical position, that I haven't really heard before.

I'm guessing all you read is about Anarch is "they are too broke, and too slow." Anarch is the Jinteki of runners, you just can not play them the same as the other factions and expect it to work the same.
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Nords3x4 wrote:
DrTall wrote:
That's an interesting philosophical position, that I haven't really heard before.

I'm guessing all you read is about Anarch is "they are too broke, and too slow." Anarch is the Jinteki of runners, you just can not play them the same as the other factions and expect it to work the same.

Well, there is definitely some self-fulfilling prophecy when it comes to being told a faction is lousy. Then when you lose, you say "Gosh, those folks were right" instead of examining your play.
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Aaron Freeman
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Quote:
Hmmm..... from what I've seen Shapers do ice destruction and bad publicity exploitation better than Anarch, and Criminals do credit denial better than Anarch. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

In faction? Nope. Not by a long shot, with maybe a corner case for Criminal cause you can use Account Siphon and Emergency Shutdown to power through creds. Rook, Reina, Xanadu and Vamp are all in faction though, which is one of the only ways to drain a corporation all the way to down to 0 reliably.

Shapers are definitely not the leader of ice destruction in faction. Shapers have to spend their influence to acquire these little tricks. They just also happen to have some of the nastiest tools for mid run installs, which players have been using (to great effect) to allow for some crazy ice destruction decks.

Now can they make an ice destruction deck that is solid, perhaps even more so than most Anarch builds? Absolutely! That is the beauty of influence.

This is pretty much just a byproduct of Anarch being the red-headed step child with the last box. Here is hoping we see some jaw dropping stuff for them between the last two data packs in this cycle and some fantastic stuff in Lunar Cycle.
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Jon Peters
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Well Spoken Greg, Dont think anyone could have put it any better. Are you going to be at the store Championship this weekend? I am planning on playing my version of Anarch and would very much like to see yours.
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Sebastian Barth
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Nords3x4 wrote:
I am claiming to be a master of Anarchs by any stretch
Freudian slip anyone? :P

Great post, I can get behind those sentiments.
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Dave Sutcliffe
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I think if Andromeda was in Anarch she would definitely be the best Anarch ID. If you move her into Shaper I'm less sure she would be the #1 ID because Shaper has plenty of search effects to increase consistency and Kate's ability is so synergetic with what Shapers do.
 
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