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Subject: Possible to win with 2 heroes? rss

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Sam Liberty
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I got this game recently and started playing. I played twice solo (controlling 2 heroes) and twice with a partner. I got my butt stomped all 5 times.

I understand it becomes easier with 4 heroes, but I'm not sure it's even possible to win with just 2.

Has anybody done this? If so how?

Any suggestions on which two heroes to use against which one villain in what environment?

My last two games were Ra and Absolute Zero vs. Omnitron in Megalpopolis, then Tempest and Bunker in the same scenario.
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Bert McCloud
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sliberty wrote:
I got this game recently and started playing. I played twice solo (controlling 2 heroes) and twice with a partner. I got my butt stomped all 5 times.

I understand it becomes easier with 4 heroes, but I'm not sure it's even possible to win with just 2.

Has anybody done this? If so how?

Any suggestions on which two heroes to use against which one villain in what environment?

My last two games were Ra and Absolute Zero vs. Omnitron in Megalpopolis, then Tempest and Bunker in the same scenario.

I've been attempting exactly the same thing after buying the game under the impression it was 2-5 players.

After doing some reading around it would appear that the game is apparently designed for 3-5 players. The rules do not state that you should not play 2 players (or 2 heroes solo) though.

I'm probably still going to try but I'm starting to believe that 2 heroes is impossible.
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James
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The designers have indicated, I believe, that the H mechanic is not built to accommodate two heroes only and that the two player game requires at least one player playing two heroes.

I'd recommend you consider the excellent sidekick deck variant in this forum. There's been a good amount of discussion about balancing it and making it as fun as it can be.
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Brian Koehler
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I've not tried with two heroes. I imagine it's possible but it will really depend on which two heroes against which villain and in which environment. I played my first five games solo using three heroes and was winning but having very close matches and that was with good luck in what I was drawing. Once my luck went south I switched to four heroes and that's felt much less dependent on luck in my card draws.

The difficulty really changes though depending on the combination of decks in use. For example, I tried fighting Kismet with heroes that had few/no ways to get rid of Ongoing cards and it was impossible.
 
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Alyn Roddis
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BertMcCloud wrote:
The rules do not state that you should not play 2 players (or 2 heroes solo) though.

They do. It's hard to find, but it's definitely there.

FWIW I didn't notice that either when I first played, but we did win our first game with 2 heroes.

3-4 heroes is the way forward with 2 players though.

Edit: ninjaed.
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Craig McRoberts
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It is possible. There is a list of "story challenges" that issues this exact challenge, and I have done it.

Also worth noting, Vengeance, the newest expansion, introduces a mode that scales nicely for two heroes, in my experience.
 
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alex devito
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Have you seen this site that ranks the heroes, villains and environments in terms of difficulty?

http://x.gray.org/sentinels-of-the-multiverse-difficulty-sco...

I don't own the promo ambuscade, but I hear he is super easy. Maybe team leader tachyon and the greatest legacy could take out ambuscade in the final wasteland.
 
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Bert McCloud
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Matchstickman wrote:
BertMcCloud wrote:
The rules do not state that you should not play 2 players (or 2 heroes solo) though.
It goes so far as to say "When playing with 2 players, each player should control 2 heroes each" (paraphrasing) on page 11 of the rule book

Actually for what it's worth the rules say that for "advanced play" 2 experienced players can choose to play 2 heroes each.

It DOES NOT say that a 2 player game should be avoided without playing 2 heroes each and it does say that the game is 2-5 players with setup requiring each player to choose 1 hero.

I am well aware that it is INTENDED to mean that you shouldn't play 2 player unless controlling 2 heroes but that is not what it actually says.
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James
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BertMcCloud wrote:
I am well aware that it is INTENDED to mean that you shouldn't play 2 player unless controlling 2 heroes but that is not what it actually says.
Well, if we agree that this is the intent of the designers, we don't have to address the semantics; you can play the game however you want, of course. I don't think there's going to be a SotM tournament any time soon for your game outcomes to be vetted. However, the designers have stated that the H mechanic isn't meant to work with only two heroes in play, so we are talking about playing a variant. In some cases the ensuing mechanical effects may hurt the players, in some cases the effects may help the players. Again, that's completely fine; it's your game.
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Brett Hudoba
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Brother Jim wrote:
BertMcCloud wrote:
I am well aware that it is INTENDED to mean that you shouldn't play 2 player unless controlling 2 heroes but that is not what it actually says.
Well, if we agree that this is the intent of the designers, we don't have to address the semantics; you can play the game however you want, of course. I don't think there's going to be a SotM tournament any time soon for your game outcomes to be vetted. However, the designers have stated that the H mechanic isn't meant to work with only two heroes in play, so we talking about playing a variant. In some cases the ensuing mechanical effects may hurt the players, in some cases the effects may help the players. Again, that's completely fine; it's your game.
Agreed. Considering there are a lot of instances in the game where damage is "H-2" or a certain card affects "H-2" heroes, the fact that these effects could be rendered useless simply due to player count should be a strong indication that the game (as published) is not intended for only two heroes. IMHO, it's poor form to use the scaling mechanic as a loophole for exploitation, despite the semantics.
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Robert Seater
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If you pair the right heroes against the villain, it can be done. E.g. Bunker (with lots of armor reduction) can almost take some villains solo, if they rely on lots of repeated tiny attacks. However, with random selection, my money is on the villain. The villains theoretically scale difficulty with the number of players, but it's far from perfect.
 
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Duane Crago
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I have once or twice. The one time I remember I was Omnitron-X and my niece was I believe Miser Fixer and we faced off against Plague Rat. Omnitron's plating of course gave us a good advantage there.
 
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alex devito
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I wouldn't have a problem with H-2 cards. The game is so stacked against the 2 players that maybe making certain attacks do 0 damage is what is needed to make a 2 player version possible.
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Trevor Steinke
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I've played several with only two heroes and it's difficult but doable. I run the variant that any calculations involving H has a minimum of 1. Thus H-2 still gives 1. Thinking back, I'm not sure I've actually won any that didn't have Legacy on the team.
 
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Mike Oehler
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I did Haka and Tempest vs Voss. I could abuse Ground Pound with Tempest's KO ability.
 
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Alyn Roddis
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Two of my friends played tonight, and both were reluctant to play more than one hero. I warned them that the balance might be off but they decided to go ahead - Nightmist and Dark Visionary against Kismet in I think Pike. They found it extremely easy, but I guess controlling the villain deck whilst healing and redirecting most of the villain's damage would do that.
 
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Hoot McToot
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Maybe in the next edition they can make it clearer that this is not designed to be a 2 player game. I generally only buy games that are easily playable with 2 players as I usually only play with my wife, so I was slightly annoyed to find out that this wasn't the case. The box says 2-5, BGG even says 1-5 despite the poll saying its basically not recommended for any less than three players. I've never seen the BGG recommendation so off before.

The only indication anywhere in the manual that it's not for two players is the line in the Advanced rules which Bert quotes above which is just confusing if up to that point you're assuming it's a normal 2 player game. You shouldn't have to come to a forum to find out something as fundamental as the number of players a game is designed for.

I do like the game but the rules need to be clearer, perhaps a clearly stated 2 player rules variant. I don't like playing more than one hero, it lessens the whole experience for me. I might try the 2 player rules Bryden posted, they look interesting.
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1123130/playing-sentinels-wi...
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Viktor Haag
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Here's something that other "natural 3-4p" games have done to produce a 2p variant:

Each player gets all the resources they would during a 3p game (so, here, four cards, and full HP).

Now, restrict the opposition's tempo to what they'd get in a 3p game, so:

Odd numbered turns:
Villain
Hero A
Hero B
Hero A bonus turn
Environment

Even numbered turns:
Villain
Hero B
Hero A
Hero B bonus turn
Environment

This keeps both players focussed on one hero only, keeps them going neatly opposite one another (you go, then I go, then you go), but still gives three player turns for every opposition turn.

As for what 'H' would be valued, I'd start thinking 'H==3' because really H could be thought of as "number of Hero turns between Villain and Environment turns", but it could also be H==2... I'd be tempted to even try H==3 on odd turns, and H==2 on even turns and see what that produced... (apart from making villain and environment effects 'pulse' in a strange way, potentially: still that could add flavour and an odd bit of strategy).

Has anyone tried this? Found problems with it?
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Alfred Spangler
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That's a good idea, Viktor.

I recently got the game and tried several solo games with 2 heroes, not knowing the nuances in the rules about 2 players. I thought the game was really hard, lol!

But I finally beat Baron Blade with Haka and Tachyon! (Although Haka did die, heroically.) I actually really enjoyed the challenge. It felt like a video game in that I kept wanting to play until I beat BB. Maybe 2 heroes could be thought of as an against the odds advanced mode?
 
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Viktor Haag
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My son and I have been playing using 2 characters, but three player turns, so that one of us gets a second turn on each round. This works really, really well, and doesn't particularly feel like a hard mode yet. We've played at least five times, and we haven't yet lost a game, or had one of our characters tap out on health.
 
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Eriks Dunens

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In my first game, I played with two heroes just to get a sense of the game. It was Legacy and Ra vs. Omnitron in Megalopolis and we were victorious.

It was heavily based on the fact that the game doesn't intend to scale for only two heroes and a lot of luck. We won easily because all the H damage was often reduced to zero, Omnitron never got out his "reduce damage of the most recent type" ability out, and Ra burned him for tons of fire damage. Had Omnitron succeeded in producing the damage reduction card, however, our goose would have been cooked.
 
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