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Subject: Nasir and Inside Job / Recon rss

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It seems to me like Nasir has a really nice combo with Inside Job and Recon. Here's how I think it would work:

1. I play Inside Job or Recon to make a run.
2. I approach the outermost ICE and let's say the Corp rezzes it. I spend whatever credits I want to dump during the approach step.
3. Now I encounter the ICE which triggers Nasir and also Inside Job / Recon simultaneously. Since I control the order of my own simultaneous effects, I can:
A) Trigger Nasir first if the ICE's rez cost is more than the cash I have. So I get paid and then bypass / ETR.
B) Trigger the run event first so I don't lose any money, because the run event will cause Nasir's ability to fizzle since I'm no longer encountering the ICE.

I think I can choose between A and B depending on whether the ICE will make me gain or lose money. Folks agree that this is how the timing works?
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Spyros Gkiouzepas
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I think since both events trigger upon encountering ICE and do not cancel each other, both things happen. You use Nasir's ability and then bypass the ice
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Chris Wood
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text from inside job

Quote:
Make a run. Bypass the first piece of ice encountered during this run.

From Nasir

Quote:
Whenever you encounter a piece of ice that was just rezzed, lose all credits in your credit pool. Gain credits equal to the rez cost of that ice.

So you will bypass the ice, however Nasir triggers on that ice. Inside Job encounter ice, which means nasir's effect triggers on it as well, assuming that ice was just rezed.



(Same as how Kit's ability does not work in conjunction with Inside job, because the first piece of ice she encountered was the same one that gets inside jobbed)


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Thomas R
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Taloncarde wrote:
So you will bypass the ice, however Nasir triggers on that ice. Inside Job encounter ice, which means nasir's effect triggers on it as well, assuming that ice was just rezed.

(Same as how Kit's ability does not work in conjunction with Inside job, because the first piece of ice she encountered was the same one that gets inside jobbed)

Except that if I play Inside Job on a Tollbooth, I don't pay the three credits, even though both "when encountered" effects are triggered. That's because, as the runner, my events happen first, and I bypass the Tollbooth, making the Tollbooth text fizzle.

It's an open question as to whether that happens when there are two effects under the runner's control, rather than one each for runner and corp, but it strikes me as entirely valid to interpret things the same way: effects resolve in order, but once the Inside Job effect resolves, the conditions for the second effect no longer pertain and thus that effect does not actually trigger.
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Chris Wood
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True, i think one of the with Kit is that it's the FIRST piece of ice, so it never triggers on another piece of Ice, wheras Nasir can.

Quote:
When one or more abilities have the same timing trigger or can be triggered at the same time, each player chooses the order his own abilities trigger. A player can trigger an optional conditional ability before a required conditional ability if they both have the same trigger condition.

So looking at the rules, I would assume you could pick the order. If they rez pop up window, you trigger inside job first. If they rez curtain wall, you trigger Nasir first.
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Yes, the Tollbooth and FF interaction is the basis for my statement that I can cause the Nasir ability to fizzle if I ETR or bypass first.

And, yes, the Kit interaction isn't relevant because nothing will make the 2nd piece of ICE encountered become the 1st.
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Jeremy Larner
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It depends whether FFG rules that Nasir's ability is a constant or triggered ability. I would say the wording implies it's triggered, but then again, Kit's ability has been ruled as constant, so it's anyone's guess.

If it's a triggered ability, then Inside Job (which is constant, I think) will resolve first, and Nasirs will fizzle. If it's also constant, then both Inside Job and Nasir will take effect simultaneously.

Because Inside Job is constant (not triggered), the runner never has any choices to make at all. Femme is triggered though, so there are potential choices to be made there.

I have no idea how Recon interacts, as it doesn't look like a triggered ability at all, but it requires player choice, which could potentially get very messy if it constant.
 
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Chris Wood
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Keep in mind the constant part of Kit's ability is it's the FIRST ice she encounters a turn. Nasir does not have that limitation.

If you rez 5 pieces of ice and Nasir encounters each of them, his effect fires. However Kit only gets the effect on the first piece she encounters.
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Ben Finkel
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Both effects are runner-controlled and have the same timing window and language: "when[ever] you encounter". The runner can control which effect occurs first, like with Aesop and Wyldside. If the encounter with the ICE ends during the resolution of one ability (i.e. Inside Job), the remaining pending abilities do not resolve.

If the above is not the case, I must truly give up from ever understanding this game.
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Steven Tu
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I say that both effects must fire, regardless of the order. If inside job fires, you bypassed it, but did you still encounter it? Yes. It's still runner effects, and it still must run. So you run it. Lose all money, gain rez cost in creds.

Yeah nevermind if this were true then Inside Jobbing a Tollbooth would make you pay. Neverrrrmind
 
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Andrew Keddie
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Tuism wrote:
I say that both effects must fire, regardless of the order. If inside job fires, you bypassed it, but did you still encounter it? Yes. It's still runner effects, and it still must run. So you run it. Lose all money, gain rez cost in creds.

C'mon Tuism, surely you know better. From the FAQ:

Quote:
Bypassing prevents any unresolved conditional abilities that met their trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving.
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Steven Tu
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
Tuism wrote:
I say that both effects must fire, regardless of the order. If inside job fires, you bypassed it, but did you still encounter it? Yes. It's still runner effects, and it still must run. So you run it. Lose all money, gain rez cost in creds.

C'mon Tuism, surely you know better. From the FAQ:

Quote:
Bypassing prevents any unresolved conditional abilities that met their trigger condition when the ice was encountered from resolving.

OK fine Inside Job combo choice then, woohoo
 
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C Spiekerman
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How about just plain old Nasir vs. Tollbooth? (no inside job or recon complications).

Nasir runs with 1 credit. Corp rezzes tollbooth. Encounter happens.

Does the runner get to choose which encounter effect happens first (between Nasir's and Tollbooth's), or does the runner's effect always go first?

If runner effect happens first:
Nasir goes to zero credits. Nasir goes to eight credits. Tollbooth takes 3 of those credits away.

If the runner could choose to have Tollbooth effect fire first:
Tollbooth fires, but since Nasir has only one credit, run ends. Since run ends now, does Nasir's effect happen anymore? That is, would he get eight credits?
 
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cspieker wrote:
How about just plain old Nasir vs. Tollbooth? (no inside job or recon complications).

Nasir runs with 1 credit. Corp rezzes tollbooth. Encounter happens.

Does the runner get to choose which encounter effect happens first (between Nasir's and Tollbooth's), or does the runner's effect always go first?

If runner effect happens first:
Nasir goes to zero credits. Nasir goes to eight credits. Tollbooth takes 3 of those credits away.

If the runner could choose to have Tollbooth effect fire first:
Tollbooth fires, but since Nasir has only one credit, run ends. Since run ends now, does Nasir's effect happen anymore? That is, would he get eight credits?

Runner Active player effects ALWAYS happen first.

EDIT: If this was not the case, this would be great for facechecking a tollbooth with only three creds, as you could end with 8 instead of 5 by triggering the Tollbooth first. However, this is not possible.
 
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Chris Wood
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cspieker wrote:
How about just plain old Nasir vs. Tollbooth? (no inside job or recon complications).

Nasir runs with 1 credit. Corp rezzes tollbooth. Encounter happens.

Does the runner get to choose which encounter effect happens first (between Nasir's and Tollbooth's), or does the runner's effect always go first?

If runner effect happens first:
Nasir goes to zero credits. Nasir goes to eight credits. Tollbooth takes 3 of those credits away.

If the runner could choose to have Tollbooth effect fire first:
Tollbooth fires, but since Nasir has only one credit, run ends. Since run ends now, does Nasir's effect happen anymore? That is, would he get eight credits?


Expanding on the rules point mentioned above


Quote:
If players ever want to perform simultaneous effects at the same time, the player whose turn it is resolves all of his effects first.

You choose ONLY YOUR effects. Not the order (corp vs runner) they occur in. Active player ALWAYS goes first.

 
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Carl Frodge
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Yeah, after rereading what it says in the rulebook, Nasir's and Inside Job's abilities will trigger simultaneously. Simultaneous abilities trigger at the same time, and the active player resolves all of their abilities first and they choose which order they resolve in. Then, if the opponent also has an ability that triggered at the same time, they resolve it.

So for example, I'll use Inside Job, Nasir, and Tollbooth.
1.You approach unrezzed ice.
2.The corp rezzes it, and it's Tollbooth.
3.You encounter the ice.
4.Nasir, Inside Job and Tollbooth's Conditional abilities trigger simultaneously. Since the Runner is the active player, they resolve ALL of their simultaneous abilities first in the order of their choice.

scenario 1:
a.The active player resolve's Nasir's ability first, losing all credits, and then gaining 8 because the Rez cost of Tollbooth is 8.
b.Inside Job resolves second, bypassing Tollbooth.
c.Tollbooth's ability fizzles, because you are no longer encountering it.

scenario 2:
a.The active player resolve's Inside Job first, bypassing Tollbooth.
b.Nasir's ability tried to resolve, but fails, because you're no longer encountering Ice.
c.Tollbooth tries to resolve, but can't because you're no longer encountering it.

This is all based on the scenario given in the rulebook:
Quote:
Simultaneous Effect Example:
The Runner has Aesop's Pawnshop and Wyldside installed and both have the same trigger condition of "when your turn begins." The Runner begins his turn and can choose to trigger the optional conditional ability on Aesop's Pawnshop first, gaining 3¢ by trashing Wyldside. This stops Wyldside's required conditional ability from triggering, keeping the Runner from losing click."



Now, my question is this:
If an ability says "when xxx happens" and that effect meets its trigger condition, but is trashed/removed before its ability resolves, does the game state 'remember' that it triggered, and it still resolves, or does it forget and fizzle?
(If someone can direct me to an official source where this is clarified, that'd be great!)
 
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Chris Wood
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It depends on the card really. Typically it depends on how the triggers are worded. 2 examples, one each way of this



Joshua B

Quote:
When your turn begins, you may gain (Click). If you do, take 1 tag when this turn ends.

So if you use Aesops Pawnshop (also at begining of turn) to take trash Joshua B after taking the click, you still gain the tag (Because you did the crime, you do the time!)

The other opposite example

Breaking News

Quote:
When you score Breaking News, give the Runner 2 tags.

When the turn on which you scored Breaking News ends, the Runner loses 2 tags.

So if you score Breaking News, and then somehow forfiet an agenda (Archer typically) you do NOT have to remove 2 tags at the end of the turn. Why? 2 seperate triggers, each activated individually. When scored is one trigger, and "end of turn" is the second. If it's no longer there at end of turn, it does not trigger.
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Richard Linnell
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I think what you're looking at is a situation such as Dedicated Response Team being trashed during a run when the runner has a tag? In that case, the text says "At the end of a successful run do 2 meat damage if the runner is tagged". So if the runner runs on the DRT and gets a tag in the process, they can trash DRT before taking damage. Since the DRT is no longer in play at the end of the run, the player doesn't take the damage.

Likewise, if you run a piece of ICE with an on encounter effect, but it dies due to a previously installed parasite and ICE carver, then the on encounter effect of the ICE will not trigger.

The general ruling is that text on cards is not active once they are removed from play.

There are a few notable differences, and it is related to the wording of the effect. Specifically, Joshua B and Sneakdoor Beta - you can see some discussion here
 
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Andrew Keddie
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agentkuo wrote:
scenario 2:
a.The active player resolve's Inside Job first, bypassing Tollbooth.
b.Nasir's ability tried to resolve, but fails, because you're no longer encountering Ice.
c.Tollbooth tries to resolve, but can't because you're no longer encountering it.

The result is correct, but the logic is slightly off. Bypassing (from the FAQ explicitly prevents any unresolved abilities still pending from the Encounter step from resolving, so it's a result of the bypass, and not just because you're no longer encountering.

I don't know that this is important in the current pool, but it may become so in future.

EDIT: Actually, based on other card rulings (thinking of things like multiple Awakening Centres) this is a little more complicated. If an effect causes the run to end, or can in some other way invalidate the pending trigger, then this can also cause a trigger that has been met to not resolve. That's a wordier (but probably more correct) way of looking at things.
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Chris S
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Taloncarde wrote:
It depends on the card really. Typically it depends on how the triggers are worded. 2 examples, one each way of this



Joshua B

Quote:
When your turn begins, you may gain (Click). If you do, take 1 tag when this turn ends.

So if you use Aesops Pawnshop (also at begining of turn) to take trash Joshua B after taking the click, you still gain the tag (Because you did the crime, you do the time!)

The other opposite example

Breaking News

Quote:
When you score Breaking News, give the Runner 2 tags.

When the turn on which you scored Breaking News ends, the Runner loses 2 tags.

So if you score Breaking News, and then somehow forfiet an agenda (Archer typically) you do NOT have to remove 2 tags at the end of the turn. Why? 2 seperate triggers, each activated individually. When scored is one trigger, and "end of turn" is the second. If it's no longer there at end of turn, it does not trigger.
I don't think you are correct about breaking news. Even if you forfeit breaking news you have stilled scored breaking news that turn, so the second trigger is still triggered.
Nevermind, they are two separated triggers, so the other trigger will never trigger since the card is no longer active.
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