dennis bennett
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http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/messages-from-creationists-to...


wasn't that beautiful?
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Xander Fulton
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My personal favorite part of that is their idiot grins - very grating.

Like "I'm totally ignorant of complex systems, as well as being unable to form a cogent argument, and I'm so proud of my limitations I'll just stop thinking right here!"

I don't get it. I mean, I *do* happen to think evolution was how we got here, but I'd never present the argument with a stupid "I've got everything I need to know, and I'm happy with that" expression on my face like so...
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XanderF wrote:
My personal favorite part of that is their idiot grins - very grating.

Like "I'm totally ignorant of complex systems, as well as being unable to form a cogent argument, and I'm so proud of my limitations I'll just stop thinking right here!"

I don't get it. I mean, I *do* happen to think evolution was how we got here, but I'd never present the argument with a stupid "I've got everything I need to know, and I'm happy with that" expression on my face like so...

Pull your head out of your arse- someone asked them to pose for a picture and they smiled. Everything else is you projecting.
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CaffeineBot wrote:
someone asked them to pose for a picture and they smiled.

There's also the distinct possibility that those words were not on the cards they were holding.
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MWChapel wrote:
Evolution isn't taught as a fact.
Actually it is, as evolution is both a fact and a theory.

Scientifically, "Theory" actually has greater merit than "Fact."

In layman scientific terms, a Fact is a thing that happens. A theory is a testable, predictive framework that describes why and how some things happen.

For example, the Fact of Gravity says that things fall. The theory of gravity describes how objects with mass attract other objects with mass over distance.

The Fact of Evolution is that living organisms change in each subsiquent generation. The Theory of Evolution describes the hows, and whys of this change. Broadly, that the organisms most fit for their environment will survive to pass on their genes to the next generation.
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Maltodextrin wrote:


Scientifically, "Theory" actually has greater merit than "Fact."

"Scientifically", a fact is just a single, simple measurable datum (e.g. the charge of an electron is 1.60217657 × 10-19 coulombs).

A "theory" is (from wikipedia):

Quote:
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on knowledge that has been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.


It's not that one is any "truthier" than the other. We're talking about a difference in scope and detail.
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TheOneTrueZeke wrote:
...(e.g. the charge of an electron is 1.60217657 × 10-19 coulombs)....
or as I prefer to represent it -1 in dimensionless units of charge.
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Daniel Edwards
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Tell me more about noetics no 7. Take all the time you like.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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I'm convinced (by the way is this some piss take out of creationists?).
 
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Shushnik wrote:

Evolution isn't a theory in the same way as Creationism. Because Creationism isn't a scientific theory by a very large margin. To compare the two on equal footing is insulting to both science AND religion.

"Creationism" isn't even a theory in the philosophical sense. A theory should at least attempt to explain something. Creationism is just another way of saying, "I don't know." It completely fails to tell us anything coherent or comprehensible about how the variety of species of life we see here today came to be.
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slatersteven wrote:
I'm convinced (by the way is this some piss take out of creationists?).

It's pretty tempting to think that the whole "creationist" concept is one big piss take.
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myopia wrote:
Tell me more about noetics no 7. Take all the time you like.


this one? yes, let's talk noetics!
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Boaty McBoatface
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Sorry but it was too tempting

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slatersteven wrote:
Sorry but it was too tempting


yes, too tempting!
 
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here is the full gallery combined with what the creationists really think..

http://imgur.com/gallery/PbBTk
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My religious side wants to defend these people's right to believe.

The science-loving side of me thinks they are misguided in trying to make religion into a science.

Also, people, please become informed about what science says before you start attacking it.

I personally think their interpretation of the Bible story of creation is too narrow. There is room in Genesis to for both science and religion. Apparently, the Hebrew word used for create means "shape or form" not make something appear out of nothing. Also, the Hebrew word used for "day" (as in a six-day creation) can apparently also mean "an indefinite period of time."

The Genesis account is very spare, and I think there's room to assume there is more to the story than is presented (with possibly some old myths thrown in).

In any case, I think the intent of the Bible is to tell about God and his moral teachings, not to be a science textbook.

(I'm repeating myself a bit from the Bill Nye debate thread)
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Going through the questions...

1. Bill Nye, are you influencing the minds of children in a positive way?

Yes.

2. Are you scared of a divine Creator?

No.

3. Is it completely illogical that the Earth was created mature? (e.g. trees with rings, Adam as an adult)

No, it's not illogical. It's just not supported by the evidence.

More fundamentally, it's not just about adult organisms at the point of creation. The 'mature' Earth has hundreds of thousands of ice cores, each indicating the 'story' of that year. It has a geological column that does the same. It has starlight that bears all the earmarks of having come from actual stars and travelled over millions of years. It has all sorts of qualities that tell the same story of the Earth's history.

So, could God have made it that way? Sure. God could have made Adam not merely adult but with scar tissue in his left knee that would look identical to a healed injury he never had, too. But just as if you meet a man with a scar it's not unreasonable to believe that the scar is a healed injury, it's not unreasonable to believe that the story all of the Earth's data tell us is its actual story and not just something God added in for an unknown purpose.

4. Does not the second law of thermodynamics disprove evolution?

No, it does not.

5. How do you explain a sunset if their is no God?

I'm not sure who owns the "is no God" so I'm not sure how to answer this question. (If you meant "there" then a sunset is caused by the refraction of white light into component colors.)

6. If the Big Bang theory is true and taught as science along with evolution, why does the second law of Thermodynamics debunk said theories?

It doesn't.

7. What about Noetics?

What about Noetics?

8. Where do you derive objective meaning in life?

I don't. I personally think that objective meaning is a contradiction in terms. YMMV. Fortunately for me, I'm quite content with the ample subjective meaning my life offers, e.g. being a parent to my daughters.

9. If God did not create everything, how did the first single-celled organism arise? By chance?

I'm not an expert at abiogenesis but it seems to me that once you start with imperfectly-replicating molecules you have an evolutionary process. Evolutionary creation is extremely powerful (see, for example, the many inventions and software programs created using evolutionary algorithms). By the way, scientists think that it took almost a billion years for the first cell to evolve from its chemical precursors so it's not like anyone is saying this was a trivial development.

10. I believe in the Big Bang theory...God said it and bang, it happened.

OK. No one is telling you you can't believe what you want to.

11. Why do evolutionarists/secularists/huminists/non-God believing people reject the idea of there being a creator God but embrace the idea of intelligent design from aliens?

You'd have to ask someone who does.

12. There is no in-between. The only one found has been Lucy and there are only a few pieces of the hundreds necessary for an official proof.

Someone has been lying to you. And you've chosen not to do your own homework.

There are lots of hominid fossils, not just Lucy. What I find interesting is that if you look at hominid skull fossils you see absolute agreement among Creationists that each fossil is either clearly human or clearly an ape, with none qualifying as transitional. They don't, however, agree on which is which.

13. Does metamorphosis help support evolution?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

14. If Evolution is a theory (like Creationism or the Bible) why then is it taught as fact?

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a scientific theory is. Evolution is taught as a theory; Creationism is not (yet) a scientific theory.

15. Because science by definition is a "theory" -- not testable, observable nor repeatable -- why do you object to Creationism or Intelligent design being taught in school?

See above. Science should be taught in science class. Creationism isn't science. ID could, in theory, become science but it isn't there yet and shows no signs of getting there.

16. What mechanism has science discovered that evidences an increase of genetic information seen in any genetic mutation or evolutionary process?

For any definition of information ample such examples exist. My experience is that people asking this question either don't understand what they're asking or are playing loose with the definition of information so I'd need you to define it first.

17. What purpose do you think you're here for if you don't believe in salvation?

I don't think I'm here for any external purpose. By the way, I like your lip ring.

18. Why have we found only one "Lucy" when we have found more than one of everything else?

I think you believe some facts that are not actually true.

19. Can you believe in the "big bang" without "faith"?

Yes. Also, without evidence in support of the Big Bang I simply wouldn't believe in it. I wouldn't replace it with a specific origin claim for which I also lacked evidence.

20. How can you look at the world and not believe someone Created/thought of it? It's Amazing!!!

I absolutely agree that the world is amazing. I just find "something even more amazing must have created it" to be both unsupported and uninteresting.

21. Relating to the Big Bang theory...where did the exploding star come from?

Exploding star? I feel like you're asking me a question about a topic you haven't actually paid much attention to. If you mean what caused the Big Bang then I don't know.

22. If we came from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?

Putting aside the nitpick that we and modern monkeys came from a shared ancestor, why should the evolution of humans require that every ancestor species vanish?

Let's take a smaller-scale example of evolution -- Darwin's finches. Different finches evolved beaks of varying lengths because it gave them access to different food sources. A finch evolving a longer beak that let it reach bugs buried deep in the ground doesn't mean that a finch with a shorter but stronger beak that can tear bark to get at bugs in a tree is unfit. Both can thrive.

Similarly, the evolution of humans as an evolutionary branch doesn't in and of itself say anything about the fitness of other branches.

That said, most species that have lived have gone extinct. This isn't surprising, since evolution leads to organisms that are more and more successful and -- unlike the two finches -- they often will be competing for the same resources. In the case of humans and monkeys we see different sets of branches in the evolutionary tree -- each reproducing successfully in its own way.

By the way, it looks like you're in a really cool place. Is that that youth hangout place made in California by that megachurch? I could totally hang there. If they have computers, though, you might use them to do some research on what the theory of evolution actually says and what the evidence for it is. You might no change your mind on any of this but at least then you'd know what you were saying.
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While we're beating dead horses, what happens if we assume Ham's observational/historical distinction is sensible. Okay, now I want to see some observational religion, while we discard historical religion because we weren't there and didn't actually see it.
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Tall_Walt wrote:
While we're beating dead horses, what happens if we assume Ham's observational/historical distinction is sensible. Okay, now I want to see some observational religion, while we discard historical religion because we weren't there and didn't actually see it.

Certainly does make much of the bullshit that Paul pushed out in his epistles' over the objections of Jesus' brother James very....questionable.

Darilian
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Tall_Walt wrote:
While we're beating dead horses, what happens if we assume Ham's observational/historical distinction is sensible. Okay, now I want to see some observational religion, while we discard historical religion because we weren't there and didn't actually see it.

I think if you talk to most Christians, at least, you'll find that quite a lot of them have had some sort of experience that they perceive as miraculous or divine.
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Walker
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Darilian wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
While we're beating dead horses, what happens if we assume Ham's observational/historical distinction is sensible. Okay, now I want to see some observational religion, while we discard historical religion because we weren't there and didn't actually see it.

Certainly does make much of the bullshit that Paul pushed out in his epistles' over the objections of Jesus' brother James very....questionable.

Darilian

What are you talking about here? If you think Paul is bullshit, there's really no reason for you to think James is anything else.
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twomillionbucks wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
While we're beating dead horses, what happens if we assume Ham's observational/historical distinction is sensible. Okay, now I want to see some observational religion, while we discard historical religion because we weren't there and didn't actually see it.

Certainly does make much of the bullshit that Paul pushed out in his epistles' over the objections of Jesus' brother James very....questionable.

Darilian

What are you talking about here? If you think Paul is bullshit, there's really no reason for you to think James is anything else.

James, as Jesus' brother and first head of the early Christian Church, to my eye is a lot more reliable than Paul- who was brought to Jerusalem to recant his teachings on Jesus until he was misidentified as 'The Egyptian' and sent to Rome.

I think that James' teachings on Jesus bear a lot more similarity to the 'historical' Jesus than Paul's.

Darilian
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Darilian wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
While we're beating dead horses, what happens if we assume Ham's observational/historical distinction is sensible. Okay, now I want to see some observational religion, while we discard historical religion because we weren't there and didn't actually see it.

Certainly does make much of the bullshit that Paul pushed out in his epistles' over the objections of Jesus' brother James very....questionable.

Darilian

What are you talking about here? If you think Paul is bullshit, there's really no reason for you to think James is anything else.

James, as Jesus' brother and first head of the early Christian Church, to my eye is a lot more reliable than Paul- who was brought to Jerusalem to recant his teachings on Jesus until he was misidentified as 'The Egyptian' and sent to Rome.

I think that James' teachings on Jesus bear a lot more similarity to the 'historical' Jesus than Paul's.

Darilian

Ah. Well, personally, I don't think there's a discontinuity between James and Paul, so it's a non-issue for me.
 
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twomillionbucks wrote:
Darilian wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Tall_Walt wrote:
While we're beating dead horses, what happens if we assume Ham's observational/historical distinction is sensible. Okay, now I want to see some observational religion, while we discard historical religion because we weren't there and didn't actually see it.

Certainly does make much of the bullshit that Paul pushed out in his epistles' over the objections of Jesus' brother James very....questionable.

Darilian

What are you talking about here? If you think Paul is bullshit, there's really no reason for you to think James is anything else.

James, as Jesus' brother and first head of the early Christian Church, to my eye is a lot more reliable than Paul- who was brought to Jerusalem to recant his teachings on Jesus until he was misidentified as 'The Egyptian' and sent to Rome.

I think that James' teachings on Jesus bear a lot more similarity to the 'historical' Jesus than Paul's.

Darilian

Ah. Well, personally, I don't think there's a discontinuity between James and Paul, so it's a non-issue for me.
Probably a different topic for a different thread.

Darilian
 
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