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Subject: Painting woes... rss

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brendan b
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What the hell happened to my guys?



I used this dip, and after a few days to make sure they were completely dry, I used this matte spray...



and ruined my guys that looked like this...




I'm seriously bummed...any ideas what I did wrong? It looks like the matte spray ate through the poly, and ruined the paint?
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Chris Shockey
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Could be either one of two things:

1. The plastic is a soft plastic. Paint won't stick to a soft plastic unless you use use a special undercoat. I use Plasti-dip in spray cans. It comes inblack, white, red, blue, grey, and clear. I use the clear as a topcoat before spraying dullcoat.
2. If your spray was an enamel it may have had a bad reaction to your dip. I don't think enamels and polyurethane play well with each other.

They did look really good...
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Mike Zhu
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Could also be due to humidity. This happened to some of my mini's when I varnished my miniatures while it was too humid outside. I had to soak the mini's in Simple Green and start over
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Cracky McCracken
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You sprayed matte onto the minis before the poly was set.

Don't use that grocery store matte spray on minis. As you now know, it sucks.

Goto a hobby store and get a spray called Testers Dullcote and use that. Be patient and let the poly set for a few weeks before killing the shine.
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David Bezio
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Like Cracky said, Testors Dullcoat is the only thing to use on plastic board game miniatures. That tutorial I sent you had a lengthy discussion on Krylon. Myself and dozens of others discovered it's problems so those who followed didn't have to. The initial post said "DON'T USE THIS...EVENTUALLY YOUR MINIS GET TACKY! USE TESTORS DULLCOAT!" in capital letters right above the picture of Krylon to save others the pain.

Of course, your situation is a bit different. Not sure what exactly happened, but it is obviously a chemical reaction. I've never seen this happen with any product.

Like others said, it might be humidity...or maybe the soap you used to wash the miniatures? Possibly the primer underneath (you DID use primer, right?)?
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Jake Rose
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I use Krylon all the time on metal, plastic, and resin minis and have never seen that happen. Humidity tends to causes fogging or a grainy finish, but would not cause the paint to do that.

Sorry that happened to you.
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brendan b
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Thanks for the replies...

I did use the GW chaos black primer on them, and I ordered some Testor's Dullcoat to use next time.

I've seen the cloudy/grainy looking minis from humidity, but I haven't seen any whose paint had peeled and cracked like this. I'll let the poly set for a week or two before spraying from now on.

This morning, I tried to paint a few layers over the shields and capes, and I'll spot-paint on some poly when they're dry. The cracks are still visible, but I'll learn to live with it.

I know the matte spray is optional, but do you guys feel like it's worth it? I mean...I don't mind the gloss, but I am concerned with durability.

Have any of you dipped in the poly/stain, and then dipped again in a clear poly? Does that look too plastic?
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Chris Roper
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I also mainly use trestors dullcote but have used artists fixative spray over acrylic paint in the past.

Cheers
Chris
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David Bezio
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You definitely don't need a sealer...minwax IS a sealer. The dullcoat is purely to dull the finish.
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Rob

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I use the following method for all my minis both metal and plastic and have not had any problems:

1.Prime with Krylon flat spray paint. It adheres to plastic & metal and keeps paint from peeling.
2.Paint.
3.Dip in minwax wood stain (same that you use.) Dry at least 24 hours.
4. Spray with Army Painter matte. Dry another 24 hours.

I think each layer being of a different base may help avoid cracking, fogging, and other problems.

Hope this helps.
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timothy thomsen
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A few thoughts to share:

Great painting! I would be livid if that happened to me. I used to do exactly what you did, with some tiny differences. I primed my minis with white spray, painted them, "dipped" them with the same minwax finish (just a slightly lighter shade) Then I coated them with a liquid matte finish, that would get rid of most of the shine. Mostly.

Here is my advice: stop dipping. I know I was nervous about it. I was so set with my minwax and my matte finish. But one day on a whim, I just bought a bottle of the "Earthshade" (brown)wash that Games Workshop makes. And then I painted a figure and gave it a shot.

What a difference.

Firstly, the colors. I could see the colors I used! Sometimes when I would paint something dark purple, and I dipped it, it would turn black. Period. But when you use the wash, everything does not get this automatic brown look. You get much brighter colors that are what you originally intend for your mini.
Secondly, and this is my opinion, the fewer coats of anything you put on your miniature is better for detail. 1st you prime, then paint, then a thick coat of dip, THEN you matte finish, that's a lot of coats. By using a wash, you are barely applying anything and you still get those details to pop out.
Finally, drying time. You can now paint a mini, let it dry, and wash it, and it will be done in 1/2 hour. No more waiting for 2 weeks for anything! I remember dipping some nights and hoping to finish it in the morning, but, nope, not dry yet. If it was humid, forget about it.

Sorry, not trying to rant, but I have had a ton of luck with washes (and you can use different color washes too!)(oh, and did I mention clean up is a snap, no more thinner to clean your brush for minwax, you can rinse your wash brush with water)

I know everyone gets into their own groove, and you should absolutely paint the way it works for you. But if you start to use washes, you will never have the problems that you had this time. (I have been asking around, and I do not "seal" or "coat" after using my wash. That is just me. You may try it.)
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Simon Thompson
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Looks like a chemical reaction to me.

Just finishing painting my own.

Used standard satin black acrylic car spray for the undercoat.

Acrylic miniature paints (not the el cheapo large discount store tubes or bottles)

I will undercoat with brush on gloss varnish ( i use Winsor & Newton)

I will matt them down with a coat of brush on matt varnish (again Winsor & Newton)

From personal experience spray varnish can cause problems although i still think your's is a chemical reaction from two substances which are incompatible.

Just my 2 pence/cents

I think i am going to put up a guide on how i painted mine and what i used, including all steps. But i will wait until i have completely finished painting.

In my opinion dipping sucks! there is a much easier alternative that Tim has hit on above. Use The Army Painter Quickshades...The inks not the dips. Games workshop washes can be used although they are not as good.
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Rob

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On the bright side, that look might actually work well on the golems.
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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brendanb wrote:
What the hell happened to my guys?



I used this dip, and after a few days to make sure they were completely dry, I used this matte spray...



and ruined my guys that looked like this...




I'm seriously bummed...any ideas what I did wrong? It looks like the matte spray ate through the poly, and ruined the paint?

Did you wash your figures in mild, soapy water (dishwashing soap, for example) first before doing anything else? Did you apply a primer to figure before going into painting?

If you missed one, the other, or both, it could be that the matt sealer is causing the paint to buckle because the figures still has traces of a mold release agent on it. (Don't worry: I learned the hard way, too!)

During the manufacturing process, injection mold surfaces are often treated to a "release agent" that allows for the cooling plastic pieces to be removed from the molds without leaving plastic residue in the molds.

If you don't wash the release agent off plastic figures as the first step towards painting them (the stuff is invisible, even when dry) then any paints and sealers you apply could react to it and eventually buckle, flake, or peel off.

Whether plastic or metal, washing the figures and removing flash (another artifact of molded figurines) and any extraneous debris from previous modeling effort (glue, paint, etc.) should be the first step before priming (next) and painting.

If you're figures are stable the way are (no further buckling and don't flake when handled) consider leaving them as they are for a bit and get some games in with 'em. They don't look terrible—though I understand it is entirely not what you wanted or expected!

If you still don't like them, you can try scrubbing off as much paint as you can after letting them soak in some stuff called "Simple Green" or Pine-Sol for a few. Then wash 'em, prime 'em, and try painting them again. And I've give them a two days drying time between sealing and dipping them.
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Ray F
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I've got a question for you: How long did you let the paint dry before you put on your first coast of Polyshade?

The reason I ask is, I coincidentally am in the middle of painting my Battlelore 2 miniatures and ran into the same problem, though not to the extent that you did.

I've been working on the cavalry for the past couple of weeks (I do too much detail work and it makes my projects ridiculously long) and last night I did some final touch-up work. I let the pain dry for an hour or two and I applied a coat of Army Painter Quickshade, which I guess is pretty similar to Polyshade except made specifically for model painting.

Tonight, about 24 hours later, I applied Model Master dull coat on the units and got the exact same crackingk that you experienced -- but only on the areas where I did the touch-up work the night before. My theory is that I didn't let the paint dry long enough before putting on the Quickshade. Live and learn, I guess.
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Cracky McCracken
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Hey OP... I HAVE DONE EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU HERE. YOU DIPPED YOUR MINI INTO POLYSHADE AND THAN SPRAYED IT WITH MATTE.

IT CRACKED THE POLY. NEXT TIME... DON'T USE KRYLON.

WAIT A WEEK OR TWO AND KILL THE SHINE WITH TESTERS DULLCOTE. HUMIDITY AND RELEASING DIDN'T DO IT, KRYLON DID.

Keep it up OP! go back over the cracked paint on the cape and shields with a touch up and it will make the cracks look better. Don't dip minis twice.
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brendan b
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Thank you all so much for the feedback!

There is a wealth of valuable information in here that I didn't see (or didn't absorb) in the tutorial blogs I followed.

One step I definitely skipped was washing them before priming, which I'll never skip again. Unfortunately, I primed a bunch of Descent minis before starting this thread. Fingers crossed...

I have some Dullcote in the mail, and I'll hold on to the Krylon until my sons are old enough to experiment with flamethrowers devil

The repainted shields and capes were dry, so I painted on some poly this morning. The cracks are still visible, but it's not as terrible. I'm sure my OCD will eventually drive me crazy, and I'll soak them in Simple Green and start over...but damnit...I haven't even had a chance to see these guys on the battlefield yet, and it's breaking my heart.

Thank you all, again. Only you all know what it's like to put the hours into a project like this, and feel that dip into depression when it all goes wrong.

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Mike Zhu
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Scrub down your Descent mini's down in Simple Green and prime them again. You will regret it later if you don't.
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David Millette
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simuk wrote:
Looks like a chemical reaction to me.

Just finishing painting my own.

Used standard satin black acrylic car spray for the undercoat.

Acrylic miniature paints (not the el cheapo large discount store tubes or bottles)

I will undercoat with brush on gloss varnish ( i use Winsor & Newton)

I will matt them down with a coat of brush on matt varnish (again Winsor & Newton)

From personal experience spray varnish can cause problems although i still think your's is a chemical reaction from two substances which are incompatible.

Just my 2 pence/cents

I think i am going to put up a guide on how i painted mine and what i used, including all steps. But i will wait until i have completely finished painting.

In my opinion dipping sucks! there is a much easier alternative that Tim has hit on above. Use The Army Painter Quickshades...The inks not the dips. Games workshop washes can be used although they are not as good.

I've never painted minis before, but I am considering doing so for the first time with Battlelore 2nd Edition. I would be very interested in a step by step with exact product info. Might save me a lot of headaches.
 
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Charles Blair
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mille1212 wrote:


I've never painted minis before, but I am considering doing so for the first time with Battlelore 2nd Edition. I would be very interested in a step by step with exact product info. Might save me a lot of headaches.

Painting the minis was fun although it does take a lot of time. I have painted Descent 2d figures a couple of times for gamer friends and just finished painting Descent 1st and all its expansions (which took a year since there were about 270 minis).

You can get a lot of helpful advice on the BGG Miniature Painter's Group or on the forums at www.reapermini.com Both groups are quite helpful.

For what it's worth here's the process I use and I have no problems.

1. Trim the flash and mold lines off the figures
2. Wash using dish washing detergent and a toothbrush then rinse with clean waater
3. Apply primer. My current favorite is Army Painter Color Primer, but I have used Duplicolor Sandable Primer from the auto supply and had no issues with the black or white (However,Grey was another matter).
4. Paint. Nearly everyone uses acrylic paint since enamel is a hassle to use on details. I use a variety of paints made for minis (Vallejo, Reaper, Army Painter, Citadel,P3 and Derivan) and all work well. I don't use craft type paint because my perception is it does not adhere to plastic minis as well, but I have friends that use it.
5. Optional - apply a wash or diluted ink for shading then highlight any areas the wash darkened too much. This is where some would dip in Minwax tinted polyurethane or Army Painter Quickshade, but I prefer using a wash. Let the minis cure for a couple of days to be sure the paint is completely dry.
6. Seal. I use Minwax spray polyurethane for the first coat(s). Then, use Testor's Dullcote to give the mini a matte finish. CAUTION: do not use Testor's Dullcote spray, or any other spray Matte finish, when the humidity is high or they will lose clarity and your minis will look like they are covered in frost.
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David Millette
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Thanks for the tips Charles. I got a quote for Battlelore 2e and it was like $250 to paint them. This got me thinking about doing it myself. I thought this one would be a good one to try since I could work on it as the expansions come out one my one. I bought a 2nd set to play in the meantime, so I won't be rushed. Did you use something as a reference in regards to what you wanted the minis to look like when they're done? I'm not artistic by nature, so I don't trust myself to make them look good. I guess I can look at other pics on BGG too.

ferretzz wrote:
mille1212 wrote:


I've never painted minis before, but I am considering doing so for the first time with Battlelore 2nd Edition. I would be very interested in a step by step with exact product info. Might save me a lot of headaches.

Painting the minis was fun although it does take a lot of time. I have painted Descent 2d figures a couple of times for gamer friends and just finished painting Descent 1st and all its expansions (which took a year since there were about 270 minis).

You can get a lot of helpful advice on the BGG Miniature Painter's Group or on the forums at www.reapermini.com Both groups are quite helpful.

For what it's worth here's the process I use and I have no problems.

1. Trim the flash and mold lines off the figures
2. Wash using dish washing detergent and a toothbrush then rinse with clean waater
3. Apply primer. My current favorite is Army Painter Color Primer, but I have used Duplicolor Sandable Primer from the auto supply and had no issues with the black or white (However,Grey was another matter).
4. Paint. Nearly everyone uses acrylic paint since enamel is a hassle to use on details. I use a variety of paints made for minis (Vallejo, Reaper, Army Painter, Citadel,P3 and Derivan) and all work well. I don't use craft type paint because my perception is it does not adhere to plastic minis as well, but I have friends that use it.
5. Optional - apply a wash or diluted ink for shading then highlight any areas the wash darkened too much. This is where some would dip in Minwax tinted polyurethane or Army Painter Quickshade, but I prefer using a wash. Let the minis cure for a couple of days to be sure the paint is completely dry.
6. Seal. I use Minwax spray polyurethane for the first coat(s). Then, use Testor's Dullcote to give the mini a matte finish. CAUTION: do not use Testor's Dullcote spray, or any other spray Matte finish, when the humidity is high or they will lose clarity and your minis will look like they are covered in frost.
 
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Mike Zhu
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If your going to try painting stuff for the first time, I recommend buying the game Zombies!!! or just a bag of zombie figures and paint those first with some craft paints. Go through the process of washing, priming, and etc. with them to get a feel for it before working on something more complex like Battlelore 2e. It'll make a world of difference. I started out by painting my Last Night on Earth set, and the stuff I do now is way better.
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David Millette
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Good tip.
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brendan b
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Order one of those starter kits from Citadel or Warhammer.

Or just start painting these guys. Your next project will always turn out better than your last, so there's no point in spending too much time painting minis you won't even be using...especially when you consider how much time it takes to paint.
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John Evans
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Hello Ray,

I recently had the same thing happen to my miniatures. I am trying out the Army Painter Quickshade because I like how it better preserves the base color than something like GW washes which darken the entire miniature. I let the Quickshade dry for 12 hours and then sprayed matte varnish to remove the shine. Cracks everywhere.

Im just wondering if you've solved your issue with this happening. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. On a side note I never had any cracking happen when i used the GW washes. So Im thinking it has to be something to do with the Quickshade?

thanks,
John
 
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