Jake Nyiri
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So perhaps this question has been brought up, it seems fairly obvious, but I couldn't find a thread on it here so hopefully Im not just repeating someone else.

So Im playing with Ezren, and I encounter a nasty monster in some damp horrible location somewhere. In my lovely hand, I happen to have a Quarterstaff, a Force Missile, and a Blessing of the Gods. Judging by the rule that I can only play one of each type of card per check, I SHOULD be able to play both my Quarterstaff and my Force Missile, correct? Seems to make sense, only it also seems ridiculously overpowered compared to anything any of the other characters can bring this early in the game. I pretty much only have Ezren doing any fighting cuz everyone else is basically useless in comparison. (Of the, like, two other characters Ive played with)

So if Im interpreting this right, my Quarterstaff gives me Strength +1d6 (so 2d6) and the Force Missile gives me Arcane +2d4 (so 1d12 +2d4 +2). Thats a lot of dice. But now, Im fighting a Villian, and I really need to beat this roll. So I play my Blessing of the Gods (or someone else does for me) and that adds a die to the check.
Which die? Is this a Strength-based Combat check, or an Arcane-based check? Do I add a d6 or a d12? Or am I somehow doing it wrong by even using the staff together with the spell in the first place?
 
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Mike Spartz
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You may play one of each type of card, but you may never play more than one card that changes the base die.
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Craig S.
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Only one card that determines the die for the check can be played, and it can only be played by the character attempting the check.
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Andrew Warner
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Rulebook v3 p11 wrote:
Most monsters and some barriers call for a combat check. Weapons and many other cards that can be used during combat generally tell you what skill to use when you attempt a combat check; if you don’t play such a card, use your Strength or Melee skill...
Some cards may allow you to replace the required skill for a check with a different one; as part of this action, you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that defines the skill you are going to use.
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Joseph Cochran
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So just to be explicit: both the Quarterstaff and the Force Missile say "for your combat check" and then define what kind of die you can use. Therefore those two cards are mutually exclusive. But the Blessing adds to either one.

You CAN play a Weapon and Spell on the same check, but if the weapon were the Quarterstaff you'd need to play a spell like Guidance (add 1 to the check) that doesn't say "for your combat check" on it.
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Jake Nyiri
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So I can't play both cards because they each 'define' the skill used for the check? I assumed when the book referenced changing the skill required it meant, for example, the fighters' ability to use Melee instead of Ranged with a weapon. Doing that and then playing some card that lets you use Wisdom instead of Melee (changing the skill twice from Ranged, allowing you to use an Ally to pass a Wisdom check to beat a Ranged combat check)would seem to apply here, but since neither the Quarterstaff (or any other weapon I've seen) or the base attack spells specifically state they CHANGE the skill needed and other cards/powers DO say they are CHANGING the skill needed, I thought that didn't apply. So the spells CHANGE the skill 'required' by a combat check to Arcane or Divine, and nothing can be added to them that isn't Arcane or Divine? Like an Ally who added to just a 'combat check'? Since this would imply that 'combat check' means 'Strength or melee check'?

I can't find anywhere in the rulebook where it says you can't add dice unless they are based on the same skill as the check. So I could never use one of the ranged weapons that add dice to a player in a different location unless the check they were using was based on the same skill as the ranged weapon I was using? And what about the basic Longbow, which uses both Dexterity and Strength? Wouldn't that automatically be illegal then?

How I had been interpreting it was that you could pick which ones of the skills you were using to be the skill for the check, and the others were added dice. So if I play Force Missile and Quarterstaff (*sigh* I guess I might be losing my favorite combo before the first adventure is even finished) I declare its an Arcane check if I want to use my Acolyte, or a Strength check if I want to use something that adds to a Strength check, and the other card is just added dice.
 
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No character in the Runelords adventure path can use both a weapon and a spell on a single combat check (if they're both "For your combat check..." cards), as everyone has already pointed out. It's a pretty cool idea, though, isn't it?
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Andrew Warner
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JakeNyiri wrote:
So I can't play both cards because they each 'define' the skill used for the check? I assumed when the book referenced changing the skill required it meant, for example, the fighters' ability to use Melee instead of Ranged with a weapon. Doing that and then playing some card that lets you use Wisdom instead of Melee (changing the skill twice from Ranged, allowing you to use an Ally to pass a Wisdom check to beat a Ranged combat check)would seem to apply here, but since neither the Quarterstaff (or any other weapon I've seen) or the base attack spells specifically state they CHANGE the skill needed and other cards/powers DO say they are CHANGING the skill needed, I thought that didn't apply. So the spells CHANGE the skill 'required' by a combat check to Arcane or Divine, and nothing can be added to them that isn't Arcane or Divine? Like an Ally who added to just a 'combat check'? Since this would imply that 'combat check' means 'Strength or melee check'?

I can't find anywhere in the rulebook where it says you can't add dice unless they are based on the same skill as the check. So I could never use one of the ranged weapons that add dice to a player in a different location unless the check they were using was based on the same skill as the ranged weapon I was using? And what about the basic Longbow, which uses both Dexterity and Strength? Wouldn't that automatically be illegal then?

How I had been interpreting it was that you could pick which ones of the skills you were using to be the skill for the check, and the others were added dice. So if I play Force Missile and Quarterstaff (*sigh* I guess I might be losing my favorite combo before the first adventure is even finished) I declare its an Arcane check if I want to use my Acolyte, or a Strength check if I want to use something that adds to a Strength check, and the other card is just added dice.

You can add lots of other things to the check, but you can't define two skills.

The crossbows and other bows say things like "Discard this card to add 1d4 to a combat check at another location." They don't say anything about what skill the character at the other location is using for the combat check. Blessing of the Gods just says "add 1 die to a check." That die comes from the skill you are using to define you check.

For the Longbow, it uses dexterity/ranged to define the skill. The unmodified strength die is just the die from your strength skill, with no modifiers (skill feats) added in. That strength skill isn't the skill you are using to define the check.

Note that the card you play when you define the die you are using also adds all its traits to the check. So if Valeros plays a Longbow, which has Ranged in the upper right as one of its traits, then Valeros' check now has the ranged trait. He can play an archer to add to a ranged combat check.
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Andrew Warner
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Here is a link to an example combat check I wrote up for Merisiel:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/14813836#14813836

And here is one for Lini:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qo7h?Thoughts-on-Lini#8

They both might help clarify.
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Jake Nyiri
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Poopsticks and cheese. I used to like that damn wizard.

Thanks for the help, everybody. I mean, damn you all for taking away my combo! No, seriously, thanks. May all your rolls be high and well-modified.
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Jake Nyiri
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269Hawkmoon wrote:
JakeNyiri wrote:
So I can't play both cards because they each 'define' the skill used for the check? I assumed when the book referenced changing the skill required it meant, for example, the fighters' ability to use Melee instead of Ranged with a weapon. Doing that and then playing some card that lets you use Wisdom instead of Melee (changing the skill twice from Ranged, allowing you to use an Ally to pass a Wisdom check to beat a Ranged combat check)would seem to apply here, but since neither the Quarterstaff (or any other weapon I've seen) or the base attack spells specifically state they CHANGE the skill needed and other cards/powers DO say they are CHANGING the skill needed, I thought that didn't apply. So the spells CHANGE the skill 'required' by a combat check to Arcane or Divine, and nothing can be added to them that isn't Arcane or Divine? Like an Ally who added to just a 'combat check'? Since this would imply that 'combat check' means 'Strength or melee check'?

I can't find anywhere in the rulebook where it says you can't add dice unless they are based on the same skill as the check. So I could never use one of the ranged weapons that add dice to a player in a different location unless the check they were using was based on the same skill as the ranged weapon I was using? And what about the basic Longbow, which uses both Dexterity and Strength? Wouldn't that automatically be illegal then?

How I had been interpreting it was that you could pick which ones of the skills you were using to be the skill for the check, and the others were added dice. So if I play Force Missile and Quarterstaff (*sigh* I guess I might be losing my favorite combo before the first adventure is even finished) I declare its an Arcane check if I want to use my Acolyte, or a Strength check if I want to use something that adds to a Strength check, and the other card is just added dice.

You can add lots of other things to the check, but you can't define two skills.

The crossbows and other bows say things like "Discard this card to add 1d4 to a combat check at another location." They don't say anything about what skill the character at the other location is using for the combat check. Blessing of the Gods just says "add 1 die to a check." That die comes from the skill you are using to define you check.

For the Longbow, it uses dexterity/ranged to define the skill. The unmodified strength die is just the die from your strength skill, with no modifiers (skill feats) added in. That strength skill isn't the skill you are using to define the check.

Note that the card you play when you define the die you are using also adds all its traits to the check. So if Valeros plays a Longbow, which has Ranged in the upper right as one of its traits, then Valeros' check now has the ranged trait. He can play an archer to add to a ranged combat check.

I had discarded the Archer card when resetting my decks between games because I thought it had to be a Ranged-based combat check. Harsk has the Ranged skill and all the ranged weapons say you use either your Dex or your Ranged skill. So by exactly the same rules that I couldn't add a Quarterstaffs' Strength-based dice to an Arcane check, I couldn't add the Archer's Ranged-based dice to a Dexterity check! As I would need to be using the Ranged skill to have it be a Ranged combat check? The card doesn't say 'Ranged trait', it says 'Ranged combat check'. Anybody except Harsk using a 'ranged' weapon would still be performing a 'Dexterity combat check'. Now Im more confused.
 
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Andrew Warner
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In my mind "ranged combat check" and "combat check with the ranged trait" mean the exact same thing. Otherwise the archer only helps Harsk, and I don't think that would be intended.

Again, the problem with the Quarterstaff and Force Missile on the same check is that you can only use 1 card or power to set the skill for the combat check. Both of those cards set the skill for the combat check, so you can't use both.

The archer's dice aren't ranged base. They are just dice. But you can't add them unless the check you are performing is a ranged combat check, either from the skill itself or from the traits on the card you played in "determining the die".

And, not to confuse you more, but even when Harsk uses the Ranged skill, he is performing a Dexterity Combat check. Specifically, he's performing a dexterity, ranged combat check.
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Craig S.
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JakeNyiri wrote:
269Hawkmoon wrote:
JakeNyiri wrote:
So I can't play both cards because they each 'define' the skill used for the check? I assumed when the book referenced changing the skill required it meant, for example, the fighters' ability to use Melee instead of Ranged with a weapon. Doing that and then playing some card that lets you use Wisdom instead of Melee (changing the skill twice from Ranged, allowing you to use an Ally to pass a Wisdom check to beat a Ranged combat check)would seem to apply here, but since neither the Quarterstaff (or any other weapon I've seen) or the base attack spells specifically state they CHANGE the skill needed and other cards/powers DO say they are CHANGING the skill needed, I thought that didn't apply. So the spells CHANGE the skill 'required' by a combat check to Arcane or Divine, and nothing can be added to them that isn't Arcane or Divine? Like an Ally who added to just a 'combat check'? Since this would imply that 'combat check' means 'Strength or melee check'?

I can't find anywhere in the rulebook where it says you can't add dice unless they are based on the same skill as the check. So I could never use one of the ranged weapons that add dice to a player in a different location unless the check they were using was based on the same skill as the ranged weapon I was using? And what about the basic Longbow, which uses both Dexterity and Strength? Wouldn't that automatically be illegal then?

How I had been interpreting it was that you could pick which ones of the skills you were using to be the skill for the check, and the others were added dice. So if I play Force Missile and Quarterstaff (*sigh* I guess I might be losing my favorite combo before the first adventure is even finished) I declare its an Arcane check if I want to use my Acolyte, or a Strength check if I want to use something that adds to a Strength check, and the other card is just added dice.

You can add lots of other things to the check, but you can't define two skills.

The crossbows and other bows say things like "Discard this card to add 1d4 to a combat check at another location." They don't say anything about what skill the character at the other location is using for the combat check. Blessing of the Gods just says "add 1 die to a check." That die comes from the skill you are using to define you check.

For the Longbow, it uses dexterity/ranged to define the skill. The unmodified strength die is just the die from your strength skill, with no modifiers (skill feats) added in. That strength skill isn't the skill you are using to define the check.

Note that the card you play when you define the die you are using also adds all its traits to the check. So if Valeros plays a Longbow, which has Ranged in the upper right as one of its traits, then Valeros' check now has the ranged trait. He can play an archer to add to a ranged combat check.

I had discarded the Archer card when resetting my decks between games because I thought it had to be a Ranged-based combat check. Harsk has the Ranged skill and all the ranged weapons say you use either your Dex or your Ranged skill. So by exactly the same rules that I couldn't add a Quarterstaffs' Strength-based dice to an Arcane check, I couldn't add the Archer's Ranged-based dice to a Dexterity check! As I would need to be using the Ranged skill to have it be a Ranged combat check? The card doesn't say 'Ranged trait', it says 'Ranged combat check'. Anybody except Harsk using a 'ranged' weapon would still be performing a 'Dexterity combat check'. Now Im more confused.

It's not the same rule at all. This has been addressed in the FAQ. It gets complicated...

It's all about which traits a check possesses. The type of check it is gives it its first trait. So, if it's a Combat check, it has the Combat trait. The skill you use also gives it a trait; so if you make a combat check using dexterity, your check has the combat and dexterity traits. Also note that if, on YOUR card, the skill you are using refers to another skill (such as "Ranged: Dexterity + 3"), it would also gains that trait. Your check also gains traits from the card played to determine the die (a card that says "For your combat check"), if one is played. No other cards played to affect the check give their traits unless otherwise stated.

So let's use an example of Merisiel making a combat check with a short bow: She uses her Dexterity skill because she doesn't have the Ranged skill on her card. She could use the Ranged skill if she wanted to, but since it's not on her card her die would be a d4...so Dexterity is an easy choice. Her check now has the Combat and Dexterity traits. The check gets all the traits from the bow, as well. Her check now has the Combat, Dexterity, Ranged, Piercing, Bow, and 2-Handed traits. For purposes of determining which cards can affect the check, consider ALL traits thAt the check possesses. So any card that can affect a Combat, Dexterity, Ranged, Piercing, Bow, or 2-Handed check can be played to affect this check. (There are currently no cards that reference some of those traits, but we don't know what's coming...)

So..any card that can affect a "check", a "combat check", a "dexterity check", a "ranged check", a "piercing check", a "bow check", or a "2-Handed check" could be played to affect this check. This is why the Archer could be used on this check even though she isn't using the Ranged skill.

Also important is that some cards differentiate between combat and non-combat checks, so you can look at it as though any check that is NOT a combat check gets the non-combat trait. This is my own little description, but I can't think of a situation where it would result in incorrect play. If a card doesn't specify combat or non-combat, it can be used on either kind.
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JakeNyiri wrote:
I used to like that damn wizard.

He is still really, really powerful. I honestly don't think he even needs this combo - powerful and awesome though it admittedly is (or would be, if it were allowed) - to really rip monsters to shreds. Give him some combat spells and up his INT, and he will be as good as any warrior in combat...and maybe better, since good scouting spells mean he'll rarely go in unprepared.
 
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Kirk Monsen
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had a similar issue with a player who had the Sorceress, and wanted to play a spell and use her zap ability in one check, to which I explained you could only do one or the other, not both (since they both determine the check type). had to re-explain this several times that night.
 
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Craig S.
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MunchWolf wrote:
had a similar issue with a player who had the Sorceress, and wanted to play a spell and use her zap ability in one check, to which I explained you could only do one or the other, not both (since they both determine the check type). had to re-explain this several times that night.

There are actually two reasons why this is not allowed. The first is the one you explained. The second is that Seoni's "zap" ability counts as playing a spell card, and only one card per type per character is allowed per check or encounter step.
 
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