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The Supreme Commander» Forums » Rules

Subject: 9.1.3 and trading an MSP location back and forth rss

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Aaron Cinzori
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I think I understand what happens upon the initial conquest of an MSP location and its subsequent liberation by the original owner. What happens if it continues to trade hands back and forth a few more times? Is the base amount added/subtract from the two sides' incomes each time the location trades hands after the first time?
 
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Danny Holte
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Aaron,

Yes, although the initial capture MSP are only awarded once.

I can't remember seeing a location swap back and forth too many times, but yes it could go on and on theoretically.

"Oh yeah? Take THAT!"
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Kevin Bernatz
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Yes and no, Dan...
[though this doesn't mean the rules are correct, LOL]

This is covered in the last paragraph of 9.1.3 (mostly)

"To put it another way, if you take new MSP locations from your
enemies, you gain MSPs. If you are retaking MSP locations that
you lost outside your Major Power’s home country, you don’t
gain anything (other than denying those MSPs to the enemy),
and if you are retaking lost locations in your Major Power’s
home country, you don’t gain an immediate MSP increase,
but will regain the per-turn MSP benefit of the MSP location"

So the first time Germany takes a MSP location in Poland (Warsaw), they gain 2x MSP. If the Soviets then occupy Warsaw, this would be recapture and they would add nothing to either MSP track. This is explicit in the example of 9.1.3.2. Germany would lose the 5 MSP per Turn from their MSP per Turn track.

If the Germans then reoccupy Warsaw, they would be "retaking a MSP location they lost outside German home country", so they would not gain anything. Likewise, the Soviets would not LOSE anything as no MSPs were added to their per Turn track upon occupation of Warsaw (and the UK, who may still be the controlling Major Power of Poland would also not lose anything, as they did not gain anything when the Soviets recaptured Warsaw).

This works slightly differently if you consider a MSP location inside a Major Power.

E.g. the first time Germany occupies Orel, they would gain 10 MSP immediately and add 5 MSP per Turn to their per Turn track. If the Soviets recapture Orel, Germany would lose 5 MSP from their MSP per Turn track and the Soviets would add 5 MSP to their MSP per Turn track (but would gain no immediate MSPs).

Now...it gets a bit iffy in the rules as to what happens when the Germans reoccupy Orel... Clearly they do not get the 2x MSP as it is not the "first time" they are occupying the hex (but this requires some memory...bleh), but the rules are unclear whether they would add the MSP per Turn of the hex to the German MSP per Turn track. I would argue that the current rules say "no"...that all that would happen is that it would remove the 5 MSP per Turn from the Soviet MSP per Turn track. If the Soviets recapture it, they would add the 5 MSP per Turn back....but the effect of 2nd, 3rd, etc. German re-occupation of the hex is just to remove the MSP per Turn from the Soviet track...nothing is added to either German track.


EDIT: See my other post below...I think the above is wrong and based on an association of "first time" in rule 9.1.3.1 that is incorrect. The "first time" should only be associated with additions to the Total CURRENT MSP Level and should not affect the change to the Total MSP per Turn Level...

But, as Dan mentioned..."trading" of cities back and forth is very rare...

-K
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Bob Hatcher
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Quote:
To put it another way, if you take new MSP locations from your
enemies, you gain MSPs. If you are retaking MSP locations that
you lost outside your Major Power’s home country, you don’t
gain anything (other than denying those MSPs to the enemy),
and if you are retaking lost locations in your Major Power’s
home country, you don’t gain an immediate MSP increase,
but will regain the per-turn MSP benefit of the MSP location.
That Orel example above is odd, given the rules quoted. Warsaw makes more sense because it is actually aligned with the UK and there is no secure route to the UK. We added/subtracted from MSP income for the gaining/loosing power if it was within the major power. I understand why the 2XMSP rule would only occur once, but if you don't exchange MSP everywhere that you have original ownership exchange, then that over complicate matters.
 
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Kevin Bernatz
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Quote:
no secure route to the UK

"Secure route" is irrelevant. MSPs don't represent cart loads of goods traveling to the country, but an abstract representation of political influence/"currency" as well as physical currency.

I know Dan and I discussed this section quite a bit pre-v2.0, so there is a chance we had a miscommunication....but my understanding was that we had the v2.0 rules reading the way it was supposed to from playtests.

That being said, I think I may see where the confusion is coming from... I suspect the following is what is meant by 9.1.3.1.

* First time a MSP location is captured -> add 2x MSP to the Current MSP levels and add the MSP value to the MSP per Turn level.

* If you lose the MSP location -> remove the MSP from the MSP per Turn level. Recapturing side gains nothing, unless it is a MSP location in the home country of a Major Power; in which case, that Major Power adds the MSP value back to its MSP per Turn value (but gains no immediate addition to their Current MSP levels).

I'm fairly confident that the above is what Dan wanted the v1.0 rules to say. That recapturing does not generate Current MSPs for the recapturing Major Power, and does not generate MSP per Turn increases unless it is a MSP location in a Major Power home country.

So far, the rules are fine...this is what the rules say. BUT...

I'll admit that I do not remember extensively talking about a third swapping of control; e.g. that the original capturing power "recaptures" a recaptured MSP location. To be consistent with the above rules, what probably needs to happen is the following:

* For a non-home country MSP location, since no MSP per Turn was added to the recapturing Major Power, it doesn't seem fair that they would /lose/ MSP per Turn if you again captured it. However, as you /are/ capturing an enemy MSP location, it also makes sense that you would add the MSP to your MSP per Turn value, but would get no immediate addition to your Current MSP track. This also makes it consistent with the Recapture rules, that if the enemy Major Power again recaptures the hex, they would gain nothing and you would lose the MSP value from your MSP per Turn track.

* For a home country MSP location, a similar argument would apply...but since the recapturing Major Power /did/ add the MSP value to their MSP per Turn track, they would lose the MSP per Turn from their MSP per Turn track and you would add it to your MSP per Turn Track. This, again, is then self-consistent with the recapture rules.

[I need to check if I had it right in my other post...I may have confused things...sorry]

I think 9.1.3.1 should be clarified to remove the "increase their Total MSP per Turn value" clause to be separate from the "first time" requirement. As of right now, it implies that you only add to the Total MSP per Turn value the first time you capture an enemy MSP location. I think this is probably wrong and the "first time" only should apply to adding MSP to the Total CURRENT MSP Level.

Then you end up with:

Initial Capture (non-home country MSP location)
you: 2xMSP -> TC-MSP (Total Current MSP Level)
you: 1xMSP -> pT-MSP (Total MSP per Turn Level)
enemy: -1xMSP -> pT-MSP

Initial Recapture
you: -1xMSP -> pT-MSP

Second Capture
you: 1xMSP -> pT-MSP

Second Recapture
you: -1xMSP -> pT-MSP

etc.

-K

edit: 1 (clarified example is for a non-Home country MSP location)


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Aaron Cinzori
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You could say that after a second recapture the city is so bombed out that it isn't worth anything to either side.
 
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Bob Hatcher
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Quote:
"Secure route" is irrelevant. MSPs don't represent cart loads of goods traveling to the country, but an abstract representation of political influence/"currency" as well as physical currency.
Since this is abstract, as stated in a later post about Warsaw increasing the UK's income. Given the fact that MSPs cannot be intercepted overseas, shouldn't Warsaw (repurchase of Polish units) reenter the fight and the UK increase income again?
 
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Kevin Bernatz
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Dan only wants a Major Power to gain MSPs a second time (regaining lost MSPs) if they retake a MSP location in their home country. Retaking a MSP location lost outside their home country denies those MSPs from the enemy, but otherwise doesn't increase your own MSP (the English wouldn't loot from their Allies *g*). At least that is how I would 'zen' it.

-K
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Jim F
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I thought it was all fairly clear.

Taking over enemy MSP locations

MSP = x2 TC MSP/x1 PT MSP first time they are captured only. Controlling major power loses PT MSP

Nothing for any subsequent captures - except to deny enemy his MSP which he may have regained through recapture if it was part of a major powers home country (see below)

Recapturing friendly MSP locations

MSP for any recaptured friendly MSP locations only takes place if they are part of a major powers home country. This is allocated to the PT MSP. There is nothing added to their TC MSP.






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