Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
11 Posts

The Civil War» Forums » Rules

Subject: Naval leader dies leading an amphibious expedition. Now what? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Michael K.
Netherlands
flag msg tools
badge
Hoe, hoe, hee, hee!!? Zo werkt dat niet!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Recently, we had the following situation:

Admiral Farragut was activated (two CP's) and left Cairo with four rivertransports, two ironclads and two-star general Steele with 4 SP's to sail down the Mississippi to Baton Rouge for an amphibious assault.

To get there, they had to pass manned fortress Vicksburg. The fortress fired twice at the fleet (two hexsides), damaging one rivertransport (determined randomly). After the two shots (end of the naval combat), we rolled on the leaderlosstable for Farragut and Steele. Farragut was killed, Steele was unharmed.

My questions:

1. How are ship losses from naval combat chosen?

2. What happens to the damaged transport?

3. What happens to the SP it carried?

4. What happens to the survivors of the expedition (general Steele, the 3 remaining rivertransports with 3 SP's and the two ironclads)?

5. Is the expedition cancelled or can general Steele continue to sail to Baton Rouge (by leaving the ironclads behind because he can only command 6 SP's/boats)

Thanks a lot for your answers!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fred Finkenbinder
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Michael!

I don't have the actual sections of the rules to reference, but trust I know the rules pretty explicitly by now...so:

1) The owning player picks which NSPs are lost. In your example, it may have been wiser to have an ironclad go down as this wouldn't cost you an SP as well.

2) If an NSP is damaged, it goes to the turn track to be available as a naval reinforcement the following turn (like a wounded leader). If the NSP is sunk, it leaves the game for good.

3) The SP is returned to its origin hex. If you have excess transports (as in, 5 transports and 4 SPs), you can take off the extra transport and still carry the SPs. If the transport carrying an SP is sunk, the SP is lost as well.

4) The naval movement can continue until you disembark the SPs, the entire fleet is sunk, or you commit to an amphibious assault. Keep in mind that you do not roll for leader loss until the entire expedition is completed. So, in your case, you still could have assaulted Baton Rouge with Farragutt not dead.

5) This one is moot per my answer to #4.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fred Finkenbinder
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, it may be worth noting that if New Orleans is still in CSA possession, with a supplied Fort Jackson, the assault on Batton Rouge with a fortress in Vicksburg up the river may not have been wise. Until the forts are cleared, the only hope for the force to be in supply after the assault is via a depot, unless some land forces have already opened up some rail lanes.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael K.
Netherlands
flag msg tools
badge
Hoe, hoe, hee, hee!!? Zo werkt dat niet!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Fred,

Thanks for your quick answers! We played it the way you describe it (Steele sailed on and captured Baton Rouge).
We tend to pick the naval casualties randomly (house rule) because it seems to be more realistic (and adds to the drama as well!).

It was a great game but very tough for the Union: in GT 15, the Mississippi was still open (with a CSA fortress in Vicksburg and New Orleans) and they had to take desperate measures to regain the initiative, therefore the bold attack on Baton Rouge. They were left out of supply (as you already noticed) and the relieve force (the army of the Tennessee) was still miles away in Grenada, closely shadowed by the army of Mississippi.

At the end of GT 17, the Mississippi still wasn't closed and Lincoln wasn't re-elected.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fred Finkenbinder
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Steele does not go on to assault Baton Rouge without Farragutt. Leader loss checks are not done until after the amphibious assault. In your example, the fleet can run past the fortress and then assault Baton Rouge with Farragutt.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fred Finkenbinder
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Keep in mind that the Mississippi River is very tough to take against a skilled CSA opponent. A new player will be fascinated with the idea that implementing an Anaconda Plan is possible, but a couple short 1-Table-Use Turns can work against the USA for this to work. You need SPs to hold the cities, and these may be of better use elsewhere.

I did lose the Mississippi in one game, and I may lose it in a game I am currently playing...but by and large, there are better avenues for the Union to go through, once it is apparent that the Mississippi route will not work within the scope of the game.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Turansky
United States
Shreveport
Louisiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
bigbadscrubb wrote:
Keep in mind that the Mississippi River is very tough to take against a skilled CSA opponent. A new player will be fascinated with the idea that implementing an Anaconda Plan is possible, but a couple short 1-Table-Use Turns can work against the USA for this to work. You need SPs to hold the cities, and these may be of better use elsewhere.

I did lose the Mississippi in one game, and I may lose it in a game I am currently playing...but by and large, there are better avenues for the Union to go through, once it is apparent that the Mississippi route will not work within the scope of the game.

Shannon had little trouble as the USA player in taking the Mississippi River against my CSA defense. It did require all of the best Union leaders working together for several turns, but it pays large dividends. Clearly, there are other avenues of attack which may be easier to exploit against a strong CSA defense.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fred Finkenbinder
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Dave - that same opponent may get the Mississippi before the end of our game as well. We are in Turn 14 and he still needs Vicksburg and Baton Rouge and Port Hudson (if I am not mistaken) to do it...but it is very possible as he has New Orleans already.

We both know the player who took the river from my Rebs the first time

But yeah, I find that most things have to fall into place just right for it to work.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael K.
Netherlands
flag msg tools
badge
Hoe, hoe, hee, hee!!? Zo werkt dat niet!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bigbadscrubb wrote:
Steele does not go on to assault Baton Rouge without Farragutt. Leader loss checks are not done until after the amphibious assault. In your example, the fleet can run past the fortress and then assault Baton Rouge with Farragutt.

So to be certain: this means the only leaderloss checks made when the US makes an amphibious assault are at the end of the assault itself? Not after any encounters (combats) with forts/fortresses or CSA NSP's?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fred Finkenbinder
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Correct - a leader loss check for naval operations is only made after an act that stops the naval movement. These include debarting an SP, amphibious assault, or the loss of a force. And, you only need to do a single leader loss check for the entirety of the operation as a whole.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Turansky
United States
Shreveport
Louisiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Michael, this is from the original rules, although the numbering and the phrase "during a single command activation" were added by the rules revision:

8.2.3 Naval leaders check for Leader Loss at the end of each combat;
however, only one Check is made per naval combat. When a naval force is
involved in more than one combat at a time during a single command
activation, either by passing a fort/fortress or by engaging in more than one round of naval combat, only one Leader Loss Check is made per leader, not one per combat per leader.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls