Recommend
9 
 Thumb up
 Hide
79 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 

Crowdfunding: Kickstarter» Forums » General

Subject: Kickstarter is not a store! Yeah, right. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Robert Burke
United States
Belmont
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have backed projects by Queen Games on Kickstarter, and I am pretty happy with them. For example, Edo is a favorite.

Some people have an issue with a company as large as Queen using Kickstarter, but I have never had a problem with it. After all, they have as much right to use Kickstarter as anyone else. And a game like Edo would not have been made without Kickstarter. (Or would it?)

However, their newest Kickstarer project has really rubbed me the wrong way.

They are selling a "Kickstarter Edition" of Kingdom Builder. Not only is this a game that's already published, but it won the Spiel des Jahres in 2012.

By Kickstarter's own marketing material, the site is for "Creative projects" and is "not a store" to sell existing products. So, how then, is Kingdom Builder a "creative project"? Make no mistake about it, this project is just a another way for Queen to sell a game that already exists.

Kickstarter has tried hard to mold public opinion into thinking it is "not a store" with posts like this: https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-not-a-store

But then they approve projects like this that are nothing but reselling an existing product?

I don't think I'll be backing Queen Games projects again. And I'm a bit perplexed that Kickstarter says one thing, but does another.


It's not like a game as successful as Kingdom Builder by a company as large as Queen Games needs Kickstarter money to make this happen.

Maybe I'm being irrational, but seeing Kingdom Builder on Kickstarter bothers me.

I am all for a free market though, so I'm open to having my opinion changed by intelligent comment.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
fightcitymayor
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
"This is a really weird game, and you’ll find that most people will not want to play this."
Avatar
mb
Once upon a time the KS founders attempted to squash the idea of KS as a "store" or even as a pre-order system in a desperate attempt to maintain their indie cred as innovators of "idea funding." That all went right out the window once so many projects that were advertising themselves as pre-orders did so well and made so much money. I have heard very little from the KS founders since that time about reverting back to KS as an "idea funding" site. I presume it is because they are too busy spending all of that money pledged to pre-order products.

Clearly, money has ultimately trumped their ivory tower, hipster ideals.

13 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
I hear what you are saying and mostly agree.

I am backing this as I feel it is different (it is the big box that combines everything, not just a stand alone base game or expansion bundle). As such, there is some risk not knowing the exact market for this so they would probably under produce it but now will have a better idea of demand. Pretty much knowing Queen would go this route, I held off on purchasing this game after giving it a chance several months ago. So I am happy to back it to get all that I want at a better price.

On the flip side, Queen in general has rubbed me the wrong way with their constant KS campaigns. I have backed some, but I am passing up more and more. The have no regard for the KS rules and constantly use past projects as spam centers for their new projects (this is specifically disallowed by KS terms). Despite numerous complaints to KS, they are just as much to blame as they continue to allow it.

So yeah, an established company, using it as a pre-order system, and continuing to break the rules is increasingly annoying.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Hutchison
United States
Maricopa
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I suppose the distinction is that they are kickstarting the Big Box edition of Kingdom builder which doesn't currently exist? *shrugs*

It doesn't bother me that big publishers are using Kickstarter. Mainly because I haven't been convinced that they hurt smaller/independent publishers by using it.

I do agree that Kickstarter's insistence that they are not a store is a bit silly. The vast majority of successful projects moved product, plain and simple. Sure you an kickstart an initiative that doesn't provide anything more than good will to its backers, but I don't think Kickstarter would be sustainable if that is all they offered.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Burke
United States
Belmont
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yea, it just seems that a game that won the Spiel des Jahres should be able to stand on its own. No?

Doesn't a Spiel des Jahres = huge sales?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thanasis Patsios
Greece
Athens
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I believe your issue is more with Queen Games (with very good reason), rather than the platform itself.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Hutchison
United States
Maricopa
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tinyelvis wrote:
Yea, it just seems that a game that won the Spiel des Jahres should be able to stand on its own. No?

Doesn't a Spiel des Jahres = huge sales?


Sales don't always = profit (just ask Amazon)

I often hear how tight margins are in both publishing and retailing games. If a company can use Kickstarter to increase those margins even a little bit, not only do I not begrudge them, I'd think them a fool for not doing so.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Montgomery Van
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb

I wonder how long until kickstarter supporters chime in with their 'it's not a pre-order system/store' gobbley-gook.

Sorry, but it is certainly turning into one.



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom
United States
Plainfield
ILLINOIS
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
fightcitymayor wrote:
Once upon a time the KS founders attempted to squash the idea of KS as a "store" or even as a pre-order system in a desperate attempt to maintain their indie cred as innovators of "idea funding." That all went right out the window once so many projects that were advertising themselves as pre-orders did so well and made so much money. I have heard very little from the KS founders since that time about reverting back to KS as an "idea funding" site. I presume it is because they are too busy spending all of that money pledged to pre-order products.

Clearly, money has ultimately trumped their ivory tower, hipster ideals.


Hipster ideals? Thats a new one...I always thought hipsters were soulless, spineless, and clueless, which fits nicely into the money is our God paradigm.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Burke
United States
Belmont
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NasosP wrote:
I believe your issue is more with Queen Games (with very good reason), rather than the platform itself.


I am not so sure. Queen is a business after all, and if they've determined that KS is good for their sales and/or exposure, I suppose I can understand it. Though as a true independent publisher, I don't like it.

Kickstarter on the other hand, seems to say one thing, but do another.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Magic Pink
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Kickstarter is a platform to be used for smaller publishers to get the capital they need to get projects completed. The fact that some companies (Queen, Japanime, CMoN) abuse it to cut out distributers and retailers to make a bigger profit is not the fault of Kickstarter.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
S P
United States
Zionsville
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
I don't have a problem with Queen using Kickstarter this way. My issue with Queen games and why I am staying away is that they do not provide adequate customer service when issues arise with their games. It is just not worth gambling on whether the product I get shipped will actually be playable when I get it since there seems to be little chance of them fixing any problems.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Burke
United States
Belmont
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Magic Pink wrote:
Kickstarter is a platform to be used for smaller publishers to get the capital they need to get projects completed. The fact that some companies (Queen, Japanime, CMoN) abuse it to cut out distributers and retailers to make a bigger profit is not the fault of Kickstarter.


But ultimately, isn't it Kickstarter that approves a project or not?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Magic Pink
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Mont Van wrote:

I wonder how long until kickstarter supporters chime in with their 'it's not a pre-order system/store' gobbley-gook.

Sorry, but it is certainly turning into one.





I wondered how long it would be before someone dropped a mass insult on the group they don't agree with. Pretty pathetic behaviour but sadly not suprising around here.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Magic Pink
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Tinyelvis wrote:
Magic Pink wrote:
Kickstarter is a platform to be used for smaller publishers to get the capital they need to get projects completed. The fact that some companies (Queen, Japanime, CMoN) abuse it to cut out distributers and retailers to make a bigger profit is not the fault of Kickstarter.


But ultimately, isn't it Kickstarter that approves a project or not?


Sure. But Queen isn't technically breaking any rules of the site. They're just being pretty scummy about using it.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Burke
United States
Belmont
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Magic Pink wrote:
Tinyelvis wrote:
Magic Pink wrote:
Kickstarter is a platform to be used for smaller publishers to get the capital they need to get projects completed. The fact that some companies (Queen, Japanime, CMoN) abuse it to cut out distributers and retailers to make a bigger profit is not the fault of Kickstarter.


But ultimately, isn't it Kickstarter that approves a project or not?


Sure. But Queen isn't technically breaking any rules of the site. They're just being pretty scummy about using it.


I do wonder how Queen's distribution and retail partners feel about this...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Hood
United Kingdom
Coventry
flag msg tools
badge
Microbadges by request, geekmail me for details!
Avatar
mb
I see it as a bit cynical, but I don't necessarily have a problem with it so long as the big behemoths of the gaming world aren't driving out the little guys.

It makes total sense from a business point of view - they get to see in advance if people are interested in a deluxe remake (that's not always the case, sometimes your initial purchasers are the majority of your market and they have no use for a new version) and they get a much better idea of how many to print (over- and under- printing can be a big problem).

It's also all relative, even most of the "big" guys in the gaming world are reasonably small. One big flop might not put them at risk, but two or three could. A lot of companies become very risk averse as they grow, if this is a way of them offsetting their risk and making more games that were borderline become a reality, that's not necessarily bad.

So long as I can continue to throw money at little projects that catch my eye, that's the key thing for me
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Montgomery Van
United States
Ohio
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Magic Pink wrote:
I wondered how long it would be before someone dropped a mass insult on the group they don't agree with. Pretty pathetic behaviour but sadly not suprising around here.


A mass insult, huh?

I do apologize, but I assure you I meant no insult. Had I known that 'gobbley-gook' would be so painful to sensitive readers, I would have used a more politically correct term.

But thanks for dubbing my behavior pathetic. Your tolerance level is absolutely admirable.





2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Burke
United States
Belmont
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
delinear wrote:
I see it as a bit cynical, but I don't necessarily have a problem with it so long as the big behemoths of the gaming world aren't driving out the little guys.

It makes total sense from a business point of view - they get to see in advance if people are interested in a deluxe remake (that's not always the case, sometimes your initial purchasers are the majority of your market and they have no use for a new version) and they get a much better idea of how many to print (over- and under- printing can be a big problem).

It's also all relative, even most of the "big" guys in the gaming world are reasonably small. One big flop might not put them at risk, but two or three could. A lot of companies become very risk averse as they grow, if this is a way of them offsetting their risk and making more games that were borderline become a reality, that's not necessarily bad.

So long as I can continue to throw money at little projects that catch my eye, that's the key thing for me


I agree with what you have said here. It makes sense. I guess what makes this one different for me is that we are talking about a game that won the Spiel des Jahres .

Games that win this award, from what I understand, sell in significant numbers.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Burke
United States
Belmont
North Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, there is no way to know if a project like this helps or hurts the "little guy". On one hand, I think projects like this bring MORE people to Kickstarter. But on the other, I have had a number of cancelations on Draco Magi this morning, and when I look at the projects those who canceled are backing, I see Kingdom Builder. So I can't help but think my game may be negatively impacted due to budget constraints and a big name game like this.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lester Festertester
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Nothing "scummy" about using KS as a pre order system. Things change, ideas evolve. It will increasingly be used as a pre order system by the established companies and the smaller ones that cannot compete will migrate to other funding platforms. Everyone better get used to it. I find the ones most vocal about the established companies using KS are the ones who have many of those companies projects listed in their backer history! Hmmmmm.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robin Lees
Denmark
Billund
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I would suggest that the bigger companies ARE hurting the little guy.

Most people are on a budget of some sort, and as such have to pick and choose between what if anything they want to support on KS.

As such people are often more willing to risk money on established companies.

Also, they are often more likely to back a project that offers "value for money", this is more often something that the larger companies are able to do more easily than the smaller publisher.

I have read many times how people have spent their "budget" on games such as zombicide, and their endless add-ons, (in order to not miss out on so called "exclusive" material), at the expense of not backing, or taking a risk on smaller publishers.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Gazdecki
United States
Lindsey
Ohio
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
I suppose I can agree that the only issue I "might" have with the Kingdom Builder KS is the the fact that it's Kingdom Builder. When it's new or older games they are reprinting I can understand the system, but not for KB.

On the other hand, someone mentioned that they do this to "go around the middleman". If that's the case, why not just set up a pre-order system similar to GMT Games, and when they get x number of pre-orders, they print it. That way they could go around the middleman and not have to pay the KS fee.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Hood
United Kingdom
Coventry
flag msg tools
badge
Microbadges by request, geekmail me for details!
Avatar
mb
ukdane wrote:
I would suggest that the bigger companies ARE hurting the little guy.

Most people are on a budget of some sort, and as such have to pick and choose between what if anything they want to support on KS.


Yes, but what's the alternative? If Queen go off and create their own pre-ordering system and offer exclusives as incentives, that's still a budgetary choice for KS backers and the end result is the same, Kickstarter doesn't exist in a vacuum after all.

I see plenty of smaller indie games funding (I've helped a few myself and they seem to be some of the more interesting projects). Would they have sold more copies if the bigger games companies weren't around? Probably. Would they have also sold more copies if rent or beer or food or cable TV was cheaper? Probably. That's not Kickstarter or Queen Games, that's basic economics and capitalism.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Hutchison
United States
Maricopa
Arizona
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bruiser419 wrote:
I suppose I can agree that the only issue I "might" have with the Kingdom Builder KS is the the fact that it's Kingdom Builder. When it's new or older games they are reprinting I can understand the system, but not for KB.

On the other hand, someone mentioned that they do this to "go around the middleman". If that's the case, why not just set up a pre-order system similar to GMT Games, and when they get x number of pre-orders, they print it. That way they could go around the middleman and not have to pay the KS fee.


The advantage of Kickstarter is the marketing and promotion that goes along with being on Kickstarter.

Kickstarter's cut is nominal compared to the cost of a targeted advertising campaign. Not to mention the infrastructure for taking/processing orders and payments is already in place.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.