fightcitymayor
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I will officially add you to the legion of folks I was referencing when I said this in a wargame forum post when someone brought up using UPS to Canada:

fightcitymayor wrote:
when I bring up UPS to Canadians they react as if I just used the corpse of Rush to bludgeon the entire Toronto Maple Leafs roster to death.

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Shifty203 1
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jgbaxter wrote:
Long story short;

I had some items come from the US (about $150 of games).

When I received the items I was charged customs fees, no shocker, happens a lot obviously.

No problems. Only around ~$5 anyway.

UPS wanted to charge me another ~$50 to 'act as my broker'.

Um what?

Frak you UPS you scum sucking useless &*(&)*&#*($!


After researching details, UPS has been sued many times in Canada, and from what I can see lost many times, just for this sort of situation.

Not having permission to be a broker.
Charging insane brokerage fees.
Charging undisclosed fees.


End result, package REFUSED. I get my refund from a third party, seller sadly is out of luck.

Don't use UPS

Yes, no matter how much I want something, I will not order it if they only ship UPS.

Your's isn't even that bad. Trying having the same brokerage fee slapped onto a $30 dollar item.
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Jared
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jgbaxter wrote:

End result, package REFUSED. I get my refund from a third party, seller sadly is out of luck.

3rd party being? Paypal?

Poor seller.
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Arianna Tyler
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I believe if you are lucky enough to live close to customs office, you can "self" clear your items.
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Jeff Michaud
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See also

WARNING!!! NEVER USE UPS TO SHIP TO CANADA
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Dave, or "Phineas" or "Tolstoy" or,
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JeffyJeff wrote:
That thread is seven years old. How is anyone to know whether what is discussed there even applies today?
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Phil Mouser
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Yup, if it uses UPS, I don't order it.
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Jon Baxter
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Hoya wrote:
JeffyJeff wrote:
That thread is seven years old. How is anyone to know whether what is discussed there even applies today?

Well the first post in that thread is still 100% on target, wish I'd seen it before:

Craig Viau wrote:
The minimum fee for the recipient from UPS is around 35 dollars for a small package. Thats right $35 PLUS whatever the shipping was. They will arrive with COD charges. They call it Brokerage I call it Extortion. Always use your postal service.

Thanks
From your northern neighbor.



I do think it's criminal, apparently they get away with it.


Here's another good one for you, eBay Global Shipping Program:

When ordering items from America from Canada, eBay allows sellers to use this program, it pre-charges the buyer the customs, plus a fee- not an insane fee but a high fee none-the-less.

And whether or not the buyer gets hit at the border with any customs fees, the buyer doesn't get any money back, just pocketed by eBay. Maybe I'm missing something but that all seems wrong too.

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Robert Stetler
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And buyers who are unaware of this - or unwilling to pay the cost when it happens and instead stick the seller - is the primary reason why I stopped selling to Canada.

In my experience insistence by the buyer (not seller) of the method of shipping, cost considerations, or related services (insurance, signed delivery, etc) is what results in UPS being chosen - and then this situation hits.

Its also the reason why I just sigh whenever the inevitable "why are US shippers too selfish/lazy to ship international?" threads pop up. Some of us have tried - and were burned for the effort.
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Damien
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fightcitymayor wrote:
I will officially add you to the legion of folks I was referencing when I said this in a wargame forum post when someone brought up using UPS to Canada:

fightcitymayor wrote:
when I bring up UPS to Canadians they react as if I just used the corpse of Rush to bludgeon the entire Toronto Maple Leafs roster to death.


That quote is genius, sacrilegious, but genius.
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Bryan Thunkd
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Are we sure the problem is UPS here... it seems to me the real problem is that you live in Canada.

I'm kidding!
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Frank M.
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jgbaxter wrote:
stlm wrote:
jgbaxter wrote:

End result, package REFUSED. I get my refund from a third party, seller sadly is out of luck.

3rd party being? Paypal?

Poor seller.

It was paypal yup, the sellers son, "the lawyer", told the seller that I was in the wrong and it wasn't the sellers fault... or so the seller told me.

Anyway I don't begrudge the seller either, he seemed genuinely surprised at the situation.

You might want to wait and see how this finally resolves. I just got off the phone with PayPal and they are reopening your claim, admitting that it was closed prematurely. They told me on the phone that you are responsible for the extra fees or returning the goods. You did not return the goods, you abandoned them. Now they are gone.

It is as my "lawyer" told me. You cannot refuse to accept delivery, not return the goods, and expect to get your money back.

All of that said -- I agree with you 1,000% -- I will NEVER choose UPS for any shipping, domestic or international!

And if anyone in the Calgary area knows where to buy abandoned goods, be on the lookout for a 12"x14"x18" package that weighs 18 pounds. It has six great games in it, all in excellent condition, including Agricola, Power Grid, Game of Thrones (Board game), and Star Wars X-Wing.
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G Schulteis
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And this is why I don't ship international.

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Bryan Thunkd
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thechairman wrote:
And this is why I don't ship international.
You and me both. I've only shipped to Canada a handful of times and every time I've run into some sort of issue. It's just not worth the headache.
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Matthew Leighty
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Where is Canada?
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Jon Baxter
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skifreak737 wrote:


You might want to wait and see how this finally resolves.

Frank, this was obviously not meant to bring you out in the light so to speak.

Just a warning to everyone about UPS.

Anyway, when the event occurred I had a paypal supervisor send me an email on exactly what will occur, so even if somehow it randomly changes to go in your favour, I'm happy with having that email which told me the result based on the evidence and good luck on getting them to change their mind. Of course I can just have my credit card reverse the charge too from paypal.

Just because big companies can get away with murder (often literally but not in this case) doesn't mean they scare me or that I won't stand up for what's right.

Also, and most importantly, I can't return something I never took possession of (the package), and I can't be held liable for things I didn't agree to (brokerage fees).

Ask your "lawyer" (I'm using quotes as I can't understand how you're getting this bad advice from someone trained in this area of law, unless of course this isn't the area of law they are trained in) about the basics of contract law.

I really miss those games, but I'm not giving money to an extortionist attempt by those bass turds. As I said before, this isn't personal and in the end I do think you're responsible, as a seller I have to eat losses from time to time too.



regards,

Jon


P.S. This'll be the last public exchange on this topic with you, as I'm done with the subject.


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Max Way
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ukihunter wrote:
I believe if you are lucky enough to live close to customs office, you can "self" clear your items.

I am not an attorney, but I have had (one) experience dealing with UPS over a cross-border shipment. This worked for me; your mileage may vary.

So the UPS guy shows up and wants $$. I first explain, calmly, that I was not asked by UPS for permission to be my broker. I explained that I wished to self-clear my item, for UPS to deliver later. The UPS driver, of course, was clueless and unhelpful, but I made a note of clearly identifying that I wanted to self-clear, I was only paying their fee under duress (as they wouldn't otherwise deliver my goods), and

I then went to my local CBSA office to explain my situation. The officers there sympathetic. I presented my receipt (for the goods) along with the UPS information, and had the folks at the desk process my declaration. I had the lady at the desk note on the customs form/receipt notes section specifically that this was in respect of the particular UPS tracking number.

I then contacted UPS via phone, then confirming fax with the copy of my personal declaration (showing D's and T's paid) attached. I referenced their failure to obtain my authorization before acting as my broker; I also referred to the importer program that seems to have been established by legislation whereby they could have delivered my goods and left me with the obligation to follow up with CBSA. (Shockingly, it seems the courier companies would rather gouge consumers than take advantage of this program).

It took several months to obtain a refund, but eventually a cheque arrived from UPS for the amount I'd paid to them when the package was delivered.

Your mileage may vary, of course.
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Frank M.
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Redgar wrote:
ukihunter wrote:
I believe if you are lucky enough to live close to customs office, you can "self" clear your items.

I am not an attorney, but I have had (one) experience dealing with UPS over a cross-border shipment. This worked for me; your mileage may vary.

So the UPS guy shows up and wants $$. I first explain, calmly, that I was not asked by UPS for permission to be my broker. I explained that I wished to self-clear my item, for UPS to deliver later. The UPS driver, of course, was clueless and unhelpful, but I made a note of clearly identifying that I wanted to self-clear, I was only paying their fee under duress (as they wouldn't otherwise deliver my goods), and

I then went to my local CBSA office to explain my situation. The officers there sympathetic. I presented my receipt (for the goods) along with the UPS information, and had the folks at the desk process my declaration. I had the lady at the desk note on the customs form/receipt notes section specifically that this was in respect of the particular UPS tracking number.

I then contacted UPS via phone, then confirming fax with the copy of my personal declaration (showing D's and T's paid) attached. I referenced their failure to obtain my authorization before acting as my broker; I also referred to the importer program that seems to have been established by legislation whereby they could have delivered my goods and left me with the obligation to follow up with CBSA. (Shockingly, it seems the courier companies would rather gouge consumers than take advantage of this program).

It took several months to obtain a refund, but eventually a cheque arrived from UPS for the amount I'd paid to them when the package was delivered.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

I suggested to the buyer that he find out how to pay the tax himself directly to the Canadian taxing authorities. Evidently, he was not interested.

I even asked UPS if there was a way I could pay just the tax as the shipper and was told no.
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Andy Andersen
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You guys should just move to the US. We need more nice people here
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Matthew Leighty
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jgbaxter wrote:
gamerdinger wrote:
Where is Canada?

To the west, we kicked your arse 60 years ago give or take.

I am an American, serving in Germany.
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Frank M.
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jgbaxter wrote:
skifreak737 wrote:


You might want to wait and see how this finally resolves.

Frank, this was obviously not meant to bring you out in the light so to speak.

Just a warning to everyone about UPS.

Anyway, when the event occurred I had a paypal supervisor send me an email on exactly what will occur, so even if somehow it randomly changes to go in your favour, I'm happy with having that email which told me the result based on the evidence and good luck on getting them to change their mind. Of course I can just have my credit card reverse the charge too from paypal.

Just because big companies can get away with murder (often literally but not in this case) doesn't mean they scare me or that I won't stand up for what's right.

Also, and most importantly, I can't return something I never took possession of (the package), and I can't be held liable for things I didn't agree to (brokerage fees).

Ask your "lawyer" (I'm using quotes as I can't understand how you're getting this bad advice from someone trained in this area of law, unless of course this isn't the area of law they are trained in) about the basics of contract law.

I really miss those games, but I'm not giving money to an extortionist attempt by those bass turds. As I said before, this isn't personal and in the end I do think you're responsible, as a seller I have to eat losses from time to time too.



regards,

Jon


P.S. This'll be the last public exchange on this topic with you, as I'm done with the subject.



We are much in agreement on this, Jon.

The problem is in your not returning the goods. If someone buys something from a company and does not return it, they are not entitled to a refund. It is their responsibility to pay to ship the goods back. What is hard to understand about that? Because it was an international shipment you can't just say,, "return to sender," there was an additional $53.16 that needed to be paid for the return.

As a businessman I have eaten expenses plenty of times in the past, which is why I offered you $20.00 toward the $37.33 brokerage fee. (The tax was $4.85, these figures supplied by UPS.) So for $17.33 and the tax you could have been enjoying these games. Now they have been declared abandoned by UPS as of an email I got from them at 11:42 AM today.

I agree, that is an outrageous and unfair practice UPS perpetrates undisclosed. I understand your unwillingness to pay it. I do not understand your unwillingness to share the expense or return the games, as was your responsibility -- or to try to pay the tax directly and avoid the fee.

And the main reason I am responding: I am very proud of my son, who graduated first in his class from law school, is a former clerk for a State Supreme Court Justice, and teaches at his alma mater on an adjunct basis while working for a prestigious law firm in the state capitol. I trust his legal opinion.

This is also my final word on the matter.

I wish you well.
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K DTLK
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Well, I know at least one Canadian with whom I won't be selling/trading. Thanks for this information.

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Jon Baxter
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For reference ups said ~$55.


Good on your son.
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Jon Baxter
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Orangemoose wrote:
You guys should just move to the US. We need more nice people here


Oh there's lots of nice Americans out there. Plus I enjoy universal Healhcare too much;


http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/165035/i-should-be-dea...


This week I've already had a doctors appointment, one with a dentist, a trip to the hospital, and not an hour ago I had one of my doctors caller in for an urgent appointment after receiving my latest bloodwork (this last part is freaking me out admittedly).

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Arianna Tyler
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Exactly the situation I ran into and it was solved rather quickly, even if the return of the funds took a bit longer.

Redgar wrote:
ukihunter wrote:
I believe if you are lucky enough to live close to customs office, you can "self" clear your items.

I am not an attorney, but I have had (one) experience dealing with UPS over a cross-border shipment. This worked for me; your mileage may vary.

So the UPS guy shows up and wants $$. I first explain, calmly, that I was not asked by UPS for permission to be my broker. I explained that I wished to self-clear my item, for UPS to deliver later. The UPS driver, of course, was clueless and unhelpful, but I made a note of clearly identifying that I wanted to self-clear, I was only paying their fee under duress (as they wouldn't otherwise deliver my goods), and

I then went to my local CBSA office to explain my situation. The officers there sympathetic. I presented my receipt (for the goods) along with the UPS information, and had the folks at the desk process my declaration. I had the lady at the desk note on the customs form/receipt notes section specifically that this was in respect of the particular UPS tracking number.

I then contacted UPS via phone, then confirming fax with the copy of my personal declaration (showing D's and T's paid) attached. I referenced their failure to obtain my authorization before acting as my broker; I also referred to the importer program that seems to have been established by legislation whereby they could have delivered my goods and left me with the obligation to follow up with CBSA. (Shockingly, it seems the courier companies would rather gouge consumers than take advantage of this program).

It took several months to obtain a refund, but eventually a cheque arrived from UPS for the amount I'd paid to them when the package was delivered.

Your mileage may vary, of course.
 
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