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Nations at War: White Star Rising» Forums » Rules

Subject: Assaults - too good?.. rss

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Stuart Tonge
United Kingdom
Rotherham
South Yorkshire
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Hi all,

I'm noticing in WSR much more than in WAW that there seem to be many more assaults. This makes sense due to the weapon ranges involved.
But this also means we are actually using the assault rules which have really only been used every now and again before this (at least for us) and so we are seeing some effects we don't like.

A few things that I noticed:

- units being assaulted are pinned in place - they cannot run when it's not their turn
- they also don't get any terrain advantage (seems to go against what I know of infantry assaults and further reduces the effect of anti-assault opportunity fire)
- multiple assaults can hit the same hex (first one disrupts, second one kills)
- defending in single units rather than doubles gets you killed in assaults and versus artillery (paradoxically arty kills less vs massed stacks)
- tanks are great in assaults in the open - whilst this makes sense in a way, tanks are specifically taught not to close with infantry and really shouldn't be encouraged to do this.

These all combine to make assaults extremely deadly, so much so in fact that ranged combat seems to almost fall by the wayside for infantry.

Maybe allowing defending units to run instead of taking an assault would fix this for us, I'm not sure yet. We are just seeing a huge, huge number of extremely vicious assaults which seem impossible to defend against. And after the first one, you are almost certainly disrupted and so fire on a 6 for the next one which compounds the problem further.


Would appreciate any advice or comments. Thanks!
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Richard Boyes
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Bothell
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Agreed.

In one scenario I had a tank heading for the edge of the map and victory, only to have it ran down from behind by some infantry which eliminated it.

That seemed weird. But the sequencing via the chit pulls can make chaotic and strange events unfold.

Overall I enjoy the game.
 
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Marc Hanna
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stuuk wrote:
Hi all,

I'm noticing in WSR much more than in WAW that there seem to be many more assaults. This makes sense due to the weapon ranges involved.
But this also means we are actually using the assault rules which have really only been used every now and again before this (at least for us) and so we are seeing some effects we don't like.

A few things that I noticed:

- units being assaulted are pinned in place - they cannot run when it's not their turn
- they also don't get any terrain advantage (seems to go against what I know of infantry assaults and further reduces the effect of anti-assault opportunity fire)
- multiple assaults can hit the same hex (first one disrupts, second one kills)
- defending in single units rather than doubles gets you killed in assaults and versus artillery (paradoxically arty kills less vs massed stacks)
- tanks are great in assaults in the open - whilst this makes sense in a way, tanks are specifically taught not to close with infantry and really shouldn't be encouraged to do this.

These all combine to make assaults extremely deadly, so much so in fact that ranged combat seems to almost fall by the wayside for infantry.

Maybe allowing defending units to run instead of taking an assault would fix this for us, I'm not sure yet. We are just seeing a huge, huge number of extremely vicious assaults which seem impossible to defend against. And after the first one, you are almost certainly disrupted and so fire on a 6 for the next one which compounds the problem further.


Would appreciate any advice or comments. Thanks!

It's much worse than that, unfortunately. For example, a Mk6 tankett from Desert Heat has an assault value of 1(4) and a Panther from WSR has an assault value of 2(4). What?! Not that these two tanks would usually mix vs each other, mind you, but imagine driving a stack of Mk6 machine-gun tanks into a single Panther and having an equal chance of tanking down the Panther (or a Tiger).

The other issue is that assault does not cost addl movement points. A Mk6 can zip right up from the rear to the front and plunge right into those op-completed Panthers.

Unfortunately this design issue is significant and any fix would probably unbalance scenarios. Ways to fix this: +1 MP to assault, defender gets automatic Op fire shot on any unit entering the hex even if marked "Ops complete" a moral check to attack based on the differences of the AP firepower and hard/soft target (including terrain of defenders)...

I don't like to point out flaws without at least offering solutions. I very much enjoy this scale of battle simulation, a step up from ASL level. And otherwise, I truly appreciate the elegance of this design -- other than assault and overrun.

 
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dj johnson
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St. Petersburg
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I've also been using the +1 assault cost, works well, keeps defending infantry from being too offensive/opportunistic. I like the idea of the final opp fire against assault and the AFV assault morale check - will use them next game.
Some other tweaks I've used. I don't know how they'd work in published scenarios, but I mostly just DYO.
I've also cut the boards in half to create more configurations. In situations where the roads don't line up, I use logical connections and also treat the beach/water on board D as open ground.
1. road bonus: +2 for tracked units and +3 for wheeled - provided they stay on the road the whole turn. Can not use road bonus and overrun.
2. Disrupted units: can't recover if adjacent to an undisrupted enemy unit, they have to move away - not required, they just can't rally if adjacent to an enemy.
3. HQ's can be disrupted: Instead of reduced on a dr 1, they disrupt. And they are reduced if units in their hex are destroyed. They rally like a normal unit but can rally if adjacent to enemy.
4. Artillery: dr 1 = no mission, dr 2 = mission is firepower -1, dr 3-6 normal
5. Infantry and gun concealment: Concealed infantry/AT guns/MTR can not be fired at by units using extended range (conserving ammo, speeds up play, recon even more important etc.)
6. Bridges: extend the entire width of a hex (regardless of the symbol on the map and can be entered/exited only from the end hexsides. Also, rivers occupy the whole hex and no unit can enter
7. Low penetration vs. Heavy Armor: Any direct fire attack with a to hit of 6 can only disrupt, never reduce, an armored unit with a save number of 4 or less.
8. Remove the end turn markers from the cup for the last turn - I hate when a good game just craps out one turn short: both players feel cheated
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Marc Hanna
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DJ,

Great ideas! The roads should not be basically useless. Not sure if proposed disruption adjacent penalty is too harsh given the scale, but the idea is justifiable. Other good points you make here as well. I like #7. #8 well maybe that is due to sunspots, a rain shower, insane lemmings

thanks,

MH

hildaburg wrote:
I've also been using the +1 assault cost, works well, keeps defending infantry from being too offensive/opportunistic. I like the idea of the final opp fire against assault and the AFV assault morale check - will use them next game.
Some other tweaks I've used. I don't know how they'd work in published scenarios, but I mostly just DYO.
I've also cut the boards in half to create more configurations. In situations where the roads don't line up, I use logical connections and also treat the beach/water on board D as open ground.
1. road bonus: +2 for tracked units and +3 for wheeled - provided they stay on the road the whole turn. Can not use road bonus and overrun.
2. Disrupted units: can't recover if adjacent to an undisrupted enemy unit, they have to move away - not required, they just can't rally if adjacent to an enemy.
3. HQ's can be disrupted: Instead of reduced on a dr 1, they disrupt. And they are reduced if units in their hex are destroyed. They rally like a normal unit but can rally if adjacent to enemy.
4. Artillery: dr 1 = no mission, dr 2 = mission is firepower -1, dr 3-6 normal
5. Infantry and gun concealment: Concealed infantry/AT guns/MTR can not be fired at by units using extended range (conserving ammo, speeds up play, recon even more important etc.)
6. Bridges: extend the entire width of a hex (regardless of the symbol on the map and can be entered/exited only from the end hexsides. Also, rivers occupy the whole hex and no unit can enter
7. Low penetration vs. Heavy Armor: Any direct fire attack with a to hit of 6 can only disrupt, never reduce, an armored unit with a save number of 4 or less.
8. Remove the end turn markers from the cup for the last turn - I hate when a good game just craps out one turn short: both players feel cheated
 
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Tim Capps
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If you look at assaults as the decisive battle for the piece of ground everyone is fighting over, I kind of like their lethality. It also gives infantry it's due as the final arbiter of victory. Stacks die fast in assault! Tanks don't do well vs. infantry. Paratroopers rock! As far as running down tanks, it's always nice to have a non-OpsComp unit to cover the open ground. WSR gets the feel of WWII combat down in a very easy format, so I'm pretty forgiving.
 
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gary rembo
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Yes armour is vulnerable to assault if not traveling with infantry.
I don't know the exact circumstances of your scenario but I would have opened up on that infantry in the hope of disrupting them rather than moved.
Surprised the infantry caught up with you also tanks are generally faster unless the infantry were mechanised.
 
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