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The Republic of Rome» Forums » Rules

Subject: Civil War Counts as Active War and Costs 20 Talents rss

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Rob W
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2.03.8 ... His War (in combination with all Secondary Rebels) count as one of the four Active Wars needed to destroy Rome and costs the State 20 Talents per turn. ... If the Senate does not send an Army to attack the Primary Rebel Governor remaining in his Province, that Revolt is considered Unprosecuted and will increase Unrest per the normal rules.
("His" is a primary rebel governor staying in the province.)

1.12.3 LOSING:
The game ends in defeat for all players if one of the
following conditions occurs:
I. There are 4 or more Active War cards in play at the end of a Combat Phase.
(Note that the wording is "cards."

1.07.33 WARS:
War cards are Forum Cards with a parchment background representing external threats to Rome.

1.06.52 DEBITS:
After adding the Annual Revenue and Provincial Taxes to the State Treasury, subtract 20 Talents for each Active War (including Unprosecuted Wars) and the costs for any Land Bills in effect.

It seems to me that the only time a civil war counts as one of the 4 wars is when a primary rebel governor stays stays in his province. This is also the only time the state is charged 20 talents in the revenue phase for a civil war. So, if a rebel governor marches on Rome then it reduces the war count by one and the state will no longer be charged 20 extra talents. So, everyone (including the rebel) could lose the game because a primary rebel governor decides to NOT march on Rome.

A primary rebel who was a victorious commander does not count as an active war, will not increase unrest, and will not cost the state 20 extra talents.

This seems kind of weird. Is this how everyone else interprets the rule book? Is there something I am missing?
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John Rodriguez
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If the rebel governor marches on Rome and there is a stalemate then it is still an active war (that was prosecuted) just like the base rules.

It is always an active war (and counts to the 4 for end game conditions) until it is defeated. It is only Unprosecuted if the Rebel Governor remains in his province AND the Senate declines to go after him.

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T. Dauphin
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It's been a while since I last played, and don't have the rules in front of me so please forgive me if I've got this wrong but this is what I remember;

By "staying in his province", it means he has not returned to Rome to join his fellow senators, but is instead choosing to stay in the province to lead a revolt from there. Having declared this it becomes an active war, and it will cost the treasury 20 talents every turn until it goes away.

If he marches on Rome, either he will defeat Rome or not. Defeating Rome wins the game for him. Not defeating Rome leaves two outcomes: he is defeated and the revolt put down, thereby ending the war, or there is no victory and the war remains active. If this counts as the fourth then Rome falls and any Rebels are declared the winner.

If he does not march on Rome and it counts as the fourth war, Rome falls and he wins.

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T. Dauphin
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rwright wrote:


A primary rebel who was a victorious commander does not count as an active war, will not increase unrest, and will not cost the state 20 extra talents.

This is a different circumstance.
If after having been sent to war and winning, the victorious commander says, "Sorry boys, I'm keeping my legions and not coming home." ie he's now a rebel (and he can keep those legions which are loyal to him)--for an attack on Rome.
If this attack does not result in a winner, then it will not count as an active war.

If this guy isn't dealt with the 4 wars business are of secondary concern.

 
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Jon Horne
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tanik wrote:
If he does not march on Rome and it counts as the fourth war, Rome falls and he wins.
This is a commonly misinterpreted rule. In fact, all players lose in this case.

Rulebook, p. 19 wrote:
1.12.2 WINNING: The Game ends when a Faction fulfils any of the following Victory Conditions. Victory Conditions are listed in trump order. In all cases, Rome must survive until the end of the turn (1.12.4).
1. Rebel Senator, while Marching on Rome, defeats the Senate in battle (1.11.373).
2. A Rebel Senator wins if the State goes Bankrupt (1.06.53) or the People Revolt (1.08.2).
3. The first non-Rebel Senator that achieves a total of 35 Influence is appointed Consul for Life (1.09.822, 1.09.823).
4. A non-Rebel Senator is elected Consul for Life (1.09.821,1.09.823).
5. At the end of the Forum Phase in which the Era Ends card is revealed, the Faction with the most combined Influence from non-Rebel Senators wins unless other victory or defeat conditions intervene.

1.12.3 LOSING: The Game ends in defeat for all players if one of the following conditions occurs:
1. There are 4 or more Active Wars in play at the end of a Combat Phase (1.10).
2. A result of “People Revolt” is obtained during a Population Phase with no Rebel Senator in play (1.08.2).
3. The State Treasury goes Bankrupt (unable to pay for anything when required) with no Rebel Senator in play (1.06.53, 1.07.21).
If a player rebels when there is the potential for 3 or more Active Wars in the next turn, he risks the Senate just refusing to prosecute any wars, causing everyone to lose, rebel included.
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T. Dauphin
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Yea, I shoulda waited till I had a rule book in hand. shake
Thanks, Jon.

 
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Jon Horne
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I just realized I only responded to tanik, and not the OP.

Any Rebel counts as a War for all purposes, including the 20 Talents/turn drain and the check for 4 Wars to see if Rome is destroyed. They also cause Unrest for being Unprosecuted, but this is only relevant for the Provincial Governor Rebel, as failing to Prosecute a Victorious Commander Rebel means he wins the game.

The only real difference between a Victorious Commander Rebel and a Provincial Governor Rebel is that the Senate doesn't have to attack a Provincial Governor unless he marches on Rome (although they still may attack him in his Province if they wish).
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Rob W
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AxleKerrigan wrote:
Any Rebel counts as a War for all purposes, including the 20 Talents/turn drain and the check for 4 Wars to see if Rome is destroyed. They also cause Unrest for being Unprosecuted, but this is only relevant for the Provincial Governor Rebel, as failing to Prosecute a Victorious Commander Rebel means he wins the game.

I just found rule 2.03.71 ... This reinforcement does not count
as an additional War, rather as an expansion of the current Civil War.

That rule seems to support what everyone is saying. But I have noticed that no where (and especially not in the basic rules) does it say that a civil war in which the primary rebel is currently marching on Rome counts as one of the four wars, can cause unrest, and costs the state 20 talents.

A correction to Axle; a rebel marching on Rome could be "unprosecuted" but have still resulted in a stalemate for the state. The game would not be over but this should increase unrest the way you play. I think the only way it could happen would be if all the legions that are in Rome perish in the battle. Ref: 1.11.372 “Stalemate” means the Civil
War is undecided, and must be continued during the next Combat
Phase. If all the Senate armies are destroyed through combat losses
the rebel does not automatically win and the Senate will have a chance
to attack him again next turn.

My biggest concern is that no where in 1.11 does it say that a rebellion does the three things in question. Is there an error in the rule-book? Or is this just how you guys play a rebellion? I have the VG, maybe AH was more clear and this is just a leftover understanding amongst the players here...

I am still a little undecided which way to go if it can just be a house rule. If someone marches on Rome with three other active wars the state could prosecute the rebellion and another war. If the state loses both, the rebel wins as he then gets a chance to prosecute wars to bring the count less than 4, but it would already be. REF: 1.11.373.

Going on a strict reading of the rules, it is intended that ONLY a primary rebel staying in his province does the three things mentioned.
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Rob W
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AxleKerrigan wrote:
[q="tanik"]If a player rebels when there is the potential for 3 or more Active Wars in the next turn, he risks the Senate just refusing to prosecute any wars, causing everyone to lose, rebel included.

This isn't necessarily true per 1.11.373 BUT it is true if the primary rebel is in his province since that rebel can only win with condition II.
 
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T. Dauphin
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This might clear things up a bit;

Rulebook wrote:

2.03.8 STAYING IN THE PROVINCE: If a Primary Rebel Governor remains in his Province, he cannot win due to the failure of the Senate to send an Army against him or even for defeating the Army the Senate sends against him (2.03.81). He can, however, still win if the People Revolt (1.08.2) or the State Treasury goes Bankrupt (1.06.53, 1.07.21). His War (in combination with all Secondary Rebels) count as one of the 4 Active Wars needed to destroy Rome and costs the State 20 Talents per turn. The Rebel Governor’s Strength is equal to the Province’s Base Province Strength plus all Provincial Forces, loyal Veterans and Garrison Legions, and Fleets he has. In a future Revolution Phase during Declaration of Civil War (1.11.3), the Primary Rebel can decide to March on Rome. If the Province has a Base Province Naval Strength greater than 0, the Senate can attempt to prevent the Primary Rebel from landing in Italy by Naval Interception (2.03.72). If the Senate does not send an Army to attack the Primary Rebel Governor remaining in his Province, that Revolt is considered Unprosecuted and will increase Unrest per the normal rules (1.10.9)

 
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Jon Horne
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rwright wrote:
A correction to Axle; a rebel marching on Rome could be "unprosecuted" but have still resulted in a stalemate for the state. The game would not be over but this should increase unrest the way you play. I think the only way it could happen would be if all the legions that are in Rome perish in the battle. Ref: 1.11.372 “Stalemate” means the Civil
War is undecided, and must be continued during the next Combat Phase. If all the Senate armies are destroyed through combat losses the rebel does not automatically win and the Senate will have a chance to attack him again next turn.
Yeah, that could definitely happen. Well spotted.

RoRRulebookV216 wrote:
1.12.4 CIVIL WAR WINNER:
If a Rebel defeats the Senate's Army or wins due to a "People Revolt", or State Bankruptcy, or the Senate's failure to Stalemate him when he marches on Rome, he may still lose (along with everyone else) if there are four active Wars (including his Revolt if still ongoing) at the end of the Combat Phase. In this case, he may add to his Army from the defeated Senate Army and take over all Roman fleets. He then immediately prosecutes additional Wars one at a time until he fails to achieve a Victory, lacks the necessary Fleets to support his Army against the next War, or reduces the number of active Wars to three or less. Otherwise, he too loses.
RoRRulebookV216 wrote:
1.06.22 DEBITS & CONTRIBUTIONS:
After adding the Annual Revenue and Provincial Taxes to the State Treasury, subtract 20 Talents for each active War/Revolt (even if Unprosecuted, or not printed on the card) and the appropriate amount for any Land Bills in effect. Deduct two Talents for maintenance of each existing Legion or Fleet not in rebellion.
The Rebel is considered a War (specifically a Revolt-type War) according to the AH rules. You are correct that the VG rules never define a Rebel in this way, but from reading the Rebel Governor rule you cited, it is somewhat implied, so I have to assume it was an oversight in the rewrite.


 
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Rob W
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Thanks everyone for the comments. I agree that it is implied. I will play it like this from now on. It might be worth updating the errata if it was indeed intended. Maybe we will find out that the advanced rules was the messed up part and it shouldn't be implied...
 
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T. Dauphin
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OK, sorry, I was passing notes when you asked the question and wasn't paying attention. Obviously, I haven't contributed anything helpful in this debate as yet, but I think I've found what you're looking for.

rwright wrote:

A correction to Axle; a rebel marching on Rome could be "unprosecuted" but have still resulted in a stalemate for the state. The game would not be over but this should increase unrest the way you play. I think the only way it could happen would be if all the legions that are in Rome perish in the battle. Ref: 1.11.372 “Stalemate” means the Civil
War is undecided, and must be continued during the next Combat
Phase. If all the Senate armies are destroyed through combat losses
the rebel does not automatically win and the Senate will have a chance
to attack him again next turn.

Agreed

rwright wrote:

That rule seems to support what everyone is saying. But I have noticed that no where (and especially not in the basic rules) does it say that a civil war in which the primary rebel is currently marching on Rome counts as one of the four wars, can cause unrest, and costs the state 20 talents.

It doesn't say ALL that, but it does say that it counts as one of the four wars--and therefore implies all the rest.
In the AH rules, rule 12.32 says;

AH Rulebook wrote:

12.32 CIVIL WAR WINNER: If a rebel defeats the Senate's Army or wins due to a "People Revolt", or State Bankruptcy, or the Senate's failure to Stalemate him when he marches on Rome, he may still lose (along with everyone else) if there are four active Wars (including his Revolt if still ongoing) at the end of the Combat Phase...

The emphasis is mine.

rwright wrote:

My biggest concern is that no where in 1.11 does it say that a rebellion does the three things in question. Is there an error in the rule-book? Or is this just how you guys play a rebellion? I have the VG, maybe AH was more clear and this is just a leftover understanding amongst the players here...

Right. This is rule 1.12.4 "SURVIVAL" in the living rules.
However, the bit in brackets which I emphasized has been left out of this version. Maybe it was thought this was already understood by this point. Don't know.

rwright wrote:

I am still a little undecided which way to go if it can just be a house rule. If someone marches on Rome with three other active wars the state could prosecute the rebellion and another war. If the state loses both, the rebel wins as he then gets a chance to prosecute wars to bring the count less than 4, but it would already be. REF: 1.11.373.

But since his war counts as one, it would still be at 4, and he would need to reduce the number of wars.

rwright wrote:

Going on a strict reading of the rules, it is intended that ONLY a primary rebel staying in his province does the three things mentioned.

I hope that now shows that this is not the case, and I hope I've finally contributed something useful. Please put in a good word for me during parent-teacher interviews.



 
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