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Subject: Best WWII System for Tactical Level Armor Engagements rss

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A.T. Selvaggio
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Which tactical WWII game does armor best? I assume many will vote for ASL and GMTs Panzer series. Curious if there are other suggestions out there.
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Roger Hobden
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Spoiler (click to reveal)


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M St
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At platoon level, John Hill's Tank Leader series is still the best after 30 years, ending with Desert Steel (1990 CSR Award winner for best WW2 board game). Not just focused on the hardware detail (the single tank games such as Panzer or ATS or in fact Tobruk arguably do that better), but unparalleled in handling the soft factors. Command control, experience, morale, all in one elegant package. There was talk about a new edition of Eastern Front Tank Leader that would get rid of some of the old system's rough edges. Hope that is still going ahead.
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Tom McCarthy
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I just got into ASL so I can't give you a good opinion on that (yet) but I do own Panzer and all of its expansions and am a big fan of the game.

I like that uses a basic/advanced/optional rules system. I've been able to teach people through basic and then add the advanced/optional rules over time.

I feel that the expansions are a must if only for the geomorphic mapboards that they provide. The artwork on the original map is of the usual GMT quality, but one map gets kind of boring especially if you are into "create your own" scenarios (of which, this system offers ample opportunity).

Though not WWII, there is supposed to be a modern-era version of the system on the horizon (which is an immediate pre-order for me).
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Scott Key
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Haven't played Panzer. Advanced Tobruk though is an absolute joy to play. The company that makes it on the other hand....cry
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Jeremy Fridy
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Strangely, Dirtside II, which are free sci-fi miniatures rules, actually do it pretty well. Also it has easy unit construction rules.
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Richard Savage
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*ahem* the post was on Wargames. Advanced Tobruk System does have the best of all the tactical games IMHO, and I believe I've played them all.
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L. SCHMITT
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The unbeated one
Without hesitation, Tank Leader. I won't repeat M. Stumptner's post above but I fully agree with it.
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Kent Reuber
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I've only played the Yaquinto version of Panzer, not the GMT revised edition, which, I believe, has simplified the system. The Yaquinto version was very detailed: you roll where you hit on the target tank and the armor had a thickness rating at that location varied as a function of the shot incidence angle in both the horizontal and vertical directions. Penetration values also fell off with range. If penetration > armor thickness, you rolled for damage effect. It was very simple and aided by the fact that you had cards with all the stats.
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Brad Harmer-Barnes
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I have Eastern Front Tank Leader but have never gotten around to playing it. Apparently this needs fixing.
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milhouse x
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While not as detailed as GMT's Panzer (which I heartily agree is at the top of the list) I would also highlight Valor and Victory. It still adds the flavor of armor thickness and gun penetration capability but it does so in a simplified abstract way. This allows you to keep the accuracy (insofar as a wargame is accurate) without getting bogged down by it.
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David Janik-Jones
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In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this | Transgender pride | Unconditional love, pride, and support | LGBTQ Ally | The Raven King (game publisher) ... that's me!
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I'd also probably cast a vote for the Tank Leader series as well.
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Martin McCleary
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Depends on what you are looking for.

If you want the details of armor thickness, penetration vs types of armor, etc then you're not going to find that in most boardgames you need to look at some miniature rules systems. The old TRACTICS game went to that level of detail. That said keep in mind that any game that tries to go to that level of detail is still, at best, an estimate. I haven't played the Panzer board game but I have the mini version and from looking at it either might scratch your itch.

If you want to model tactics vice technology then I'll echo the Tank Leader series but there have been lots of concerns expressed about the East Front scenarios. There are a gazillion platoon level games out there, while many are fun none has ever really hit the mark for me.

While it often gets panned I still enjoy and recommend the old SPI "Tank!" game with the expansion. Scale is 50m / hex, individual tanks and squads. If you play the advanced rules you get a very good combined arms game with C2, arty, obstacles, etc. It was really a mini game on a board. The issue for most is plotting but it never bothered me and it retains a level of the unknown during play as it is simultaneous.
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Ron A
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I'm playing Band of Brothers: Ghost Panzer. Proficiency mechanic shows how undergunned German Pz IIs and IIIs could take on T-34s and win. Limited command and control, each side has an Op Range that limits how many units can move and/or shoot, but there isn't any strict platoon/company hierarchy.

There are 2 games in the system now, with a 3rd due this summer.
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Carl Paradis
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Scott Pasha wrote:
Haven't played Panzer. Advanced Tobruk though is an absolute joy to play. The company that makes it on the other hand....cry

Like Scott says.

It makes me shake my head when some systems allow almost any AFV to be ridden by infantry straight in combat, PLUS gives them a protection modifier! This is so silly! You are more vulnerable on an AFV, and not a lot of infantry can climb in to it. Besides the Soviet "Descenti" troops, almost no nation had any infantry on thanks in combat: it was almost suicidal anyway.

Also, the importance of crew training, multi-man turrets and radios are often not well-shown. The anti-tank guns are also not often well simulated. Thus in the great majority of simulations it's almost impossible to simulate correctly what happened in reality. Like the kill rates of the Germans vs the Soviets.

Speaking of the East Front, I have read quite a few contemporary accounts, and in general the Germans were far more afraid of minefields, artillery bombardments and Anti-tank guns than Russian AFVs, especially after 1941, where the few T-34 made an impression, but it did not last long, and even at the time the kill ratio of the T-34s were abysmal. Of course getting it right would not always make for a fun game...

I could ramble on and on about this and other WW2 stuff. Like the fact that the German 37mm "door knocker" was not that bad, certainly not against the early war tanks. And that German Infantry was "saved" for a while, waiting for the larger A-T guns to appear on the East front, not only by the famed 88mm AA guns, but by the use of large stocks of captured excellent French 47mm At guns sing tungsten-core shells.
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John Brady
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Mallet wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)


devil

You know you're going to Hell, right?

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Carl Paradis
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madDdog67 wrote:
Mallet wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)


devil

You know you're going to Hell, right?


You mean the place where no new games are ever produced??? surprise
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Brad Harmer-Barnes
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Quote:
You mean the place where no new games are ever produced???

I hear they have an advance copy of "Total War".
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Carl Paradis
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BradH wrote:
Quote:
You mean the place where no new games are ever produced???

I hear they have an advance copy of "Total War".

Don't trust Satan! He works for a game company. devil
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Sean McCormick
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While the actual mechanics are quite simple, I find Band of Brothers handles tank warfare very well, for the reasons explained here:

http://battlefieldswarriors.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/tiger-vs-...
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Arthur Dougherty
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I'll jump on the ATS (Advanced Tobruk System) train here.
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Colin Raitt
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I quite like Awakening the Bear. The action point cost to fire for the soviets shows the value of a radio in every tank. I'd have more outright kills in the damage chit pool, allow tanks to survive with any number of crippling hits and raise the auto kill to 6 over the hit number. Its fast moving and more interactive than squad leader.
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Joel Tamburo
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ATS handles armor penetration a bit more fine grained than ASL. Panzer is the most finely grained model of ballistics. I guess the question is how complex do you want to get. Outside of those three systems the current crop of tactical game systems is not very good for armor (Combat Commander doesn't use it, LnL is a bit too simple and Band of Brothers and Conflict of Heroes armor depiction is not good at all).

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Bob Roberts

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kenosha_kid wrote:
I'm still waiting for 'Advanced Panzer Pranks'.

We had trouble with the fisticuffs combat resolution, it wasn't balanced.
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