Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

Battlestar Galactica: The Board Game – Exodus Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Trying to become cylon? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Alexander Olson
United States
Traverse City
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
I Tried an interesting strategy last game, humans were not going to make it due to fuel barring 2 + scout for fuels, so i tried becoming cylon.
first maybe completing my personal goal early will do it? nope no luck. Interacted with antagonist baltar ally no luck again. meanwhile the group made it to IO against all odds, i was dealt the crossroads card who's antagonistic symbol was shuffle a YANAC and get a loyalty card. BIngo I got it !!!!! I immediatly turned on my former allies by spiking the next check involving fuel, with the help of the other cylon.

Thoughts on this strategy? Is it valid to throw your teammates under the bus to ensure your own win? Is it fair for other players?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
xanthedragon wrote:
Thoughts on this strategy? Is it valid to throw your teammates under the bus to ensure your own win? Is it fair for other players?
Because you asked, you might know the answer.

When we started playing, being a cylon was so exciting that you wanted to get the card. It feels better to do it early instead of when you already know how the game is turning. I love to struggle for a win, whichever side I'm on.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
U.S.A., Earth
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
xanthedragon wrote:
I Tried an interesting strategy last game, humans were not going to make it due to fuel barring 2 + scout for fuels, so i tried becoming cylon.
first maybe completing my personal goal early will do it? nope no luck. Interacted with antagonist baltar ally no luck again. meanwhile the group made it to IO against all odds, i was dealt the crossroads card who's antagonistic symbol was shuffle a YANAC and get a loyalty card. BIngo I got it !!!!! I immediatly turned on my former allies by spiking the next check involving fuel, with the help of the other cylon.

Thoughts on this strategy? Is it valid to throw your teammates under the bus to ensure your own win? Is it fair for other players?
While it may be somewhat "against the spirit", I think it's still fair game.

One game, someone was glad to get brigged as Boomer so that a trauma token may execute her (playing with Exodus and IN of course) and she'd get the other cylon card. It ended up working. As for not "struggling it out", the situation was so horrible for the humans that they were going to lose even in a 1 cylon vs. 4 humans setup.

Another 6p game with all exp, one player got both cylon cards, and his favor to a friend was to reveal and handoff his other cylon card just before the humans lost. I told him that the Daybreak rulebook (and nice they put it in there, as opposed to having to stick it in the OFAQ) that the handoff could only be done at 7 or less distance, not at 10 (playing to Earth). "Oh well".

Most cases, OPG are left till post-sleeper when everyone knows for sure where their loyalties lie. I've seen players use it to keep the game going long enough to survive till sleeper phase, where up to 2 lucky contestants can get the winning cylon cards
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pieter
Netherlands
Tilburg
flag msg tools
Good intentions are no substitute for a good education.
badge
I take my fun very seriously.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
xanthedragon wrote:
I Tried an interesting strategy last game, humans were not going to make it due to fuel barring 2 + scout for fuels, so i tried becoming cylon.
first maybe completing my personal goal early will do it? nope no luck. Interacted with antagonist baltar ally no luck again. meanwhile the group made it to IO against all odds, i was dealt the crossroads card who's antagonistic symbol was shuffle a YANAC and get a loyalty card. BIngo I got it !!!!! I immediatly turned on my former allies by spiking the next check involving fuel, with the help of the other cylon.

Thoughts on this strategy? Is it valid to throw your teammates under the bus to ensure your own win? Is it fair for other players?
What may be a bit unfair is that you could not KNOW that there still was a YAAC Card available. It could just as well be that there was a hidden Cylon amongst the crew who held the last card. And then you are a human player who is working against the fleet, in the hopes of becoming a Cylon, thereby destroying any chance the humans still have to score a victory.

Is it legit? Well, you are not breaking any rules, so I guess it is. Is it fair? Nope. But it shows once more that the Exodus loyalty deck rules are just stupid.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allan Clements
Norway
Oslo
flag msg tools
badge
Turns out Esseb did touch the flag. Don't tell him I said so though.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, playing less than perfectly in the first half of the game in case you become a cylon is certainly the best strategy (and I heavily encourage it). So this is really no different.

If you can get all the titles under your control pre-sleeper, then you increase the odds of winning for whichever side you end up on.

There are of course other aspects to consider, such as the fact that the rest of the team will mistrust you no matter what, but from a purely selfish point of view, getting more power and cards for post-sleeper is win-win for the individual.

In a team game, where you aren't 100% sure which team you are on until the end, you should be careful over committing to one side or the other. Hoping to become a cylon is an extension of that.

Now intentionally sabotaging skill checks, and doing actual cylony things when you aren't a cylon would be bad play.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Neuhaus
United States
New York
NY
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The game rules are fixed before the game starts. Anything you can do to earn yourself a victory within the game rules is totally legit.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
rrenaud wrote:
The game rules are fixed before the game starts. Anything you can do to earn yourself a victory within the game rules is totally legit.

What happens when two players disagree about what the rules are?

If the rules are complete, then anything they allow is probably fair game, but even then, "community standards" may apply - and very few games actually have complete rules - there are usually some undecidable questions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
U.S.A., Earth
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rmsgrey wrote:
rrenaud wrote:
The game rules are fixed before the game starts. Anything you can do to earn yourself a victory within the game rules is totally legit.

What happens when two players disagree about what the rules are?

If the rules are complete, then anything they allow is probably fair game, but even then, "community standards" may apply - and very few games actually have complete rules - there are usually some undecidable questions.
Then set aside some special conditions and house rules.

I've actually seen some solid disagreements about CL vs. Mutr, complex destiny vs. regular DD, and requests for people to not reveal right away even though that's sometimes their best chance at winning (due to circumstances, and how some don't like or can't pull off "the saboteur")
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Curtis Kopciuch
Canada
Regina
Saskatchewan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I absolutely do NOT think this is OK. I have several players that do this. So, this comes from several games of experience dealing this crap.

I understand about 'trying to win'. But trying to win this way absolutely ruins the game. The Humans have to work together to win. The odds are already against them.

The game is all about trying to figure out who to trust and who not to trust. If one person is trying not to be on the side the game mechanic has dictated that may change how you play and will change the perception others have of you.

If you have one 'human' trying to become a clyon then that player is not committed to the side they are on. What if everyone was doing this? The humans would have 0% chance to win.

This game works the best if each player is 100% committed to the side they are on at the time. Especially when you are working so hard for one side and then half way through you get flipped. That's probably how Boomer really felt.

Ya there are the "within the rules" blah blah arguments, but that's crap. This is more of a social game then a board game. The board game is just the mechanic to cause the social situations.

If you want to play that way then be the Cylon leader.

I've actually had players play as a cylon anyway because they 'tried' to become a cylon and failed. So, he just played skills to help the cylons. One player actually found a way to draw 7 loyalty cards and still didn't become a cylon.

It was all within the rules. No one will ever convince me that this didn't ruin the game.

You can't have wishy washy humans because they 'might' become a cylon. How do you know both cylon cards aren't out already? You don't. You cannot play with the "hopes" of becoming a cylon.

You just can't
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next Total Solar Eclipse holiday in 2024 in USA? See you there!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KAGE13 wrote:
This game works the best if each player is 100% committed to the side they are on at the time.
Actually, it doesn't.

That way any game with no or one pre-sleeper cylon is a runaway game for humans, and any game with at least one pre-sleeper cylon is a almost runaway game for cylons. You get the first-round reveals this way, and it is pretty bad game for both humans and cylons, and pretty boring for the cylon (especially with the base game, and getting executed due to crisis result before my first turn as a cylon was not that fun with the expansions either). I would rather take Cylon Leader, there is at least the challenge of walking the fine line in the middle.

A working balance is to favor your own position when it is not in conflict with your team's position, i.e. not actively working against your current team.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
U.S.A., Earth
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KAGE13 wrote:
If you have one 'human' trying to become a clyon then that player is not committed to the side they are on. What if everyone was doing this? The humans would have 0% chance to win.
Just in case I wasn't clear in my posts, the people who do this are doing so in situations where the humans have no chance to very nil chance of winning.

We're not talking about 2 human players playing as if they were full cylons, sabotaging things and seeing if they'll get cylon cards.

And as Kamakaze mentioned, you don't want the humans to be doing too well if you suspect the cylons aren't out yet. It may be worse to go into 6-distance, and find all the resources at 4-6-9-11 (and yes, the cylons were faced with this situation for one game). They have 4 Fuel to go 2 distance, and only 1 Morale and pop has gone down from the start values. I'm not saying this is impossible to win, but it really is an uphill battle. If there aren't any CAC, or with the CFB, they manage to stall it out.... GAME OVER. If the humans are experienced, they can easily manage the crisis and Qcards without having to worry about anything then a few scant cylon ships on the MGB.


No, the situation I'm talking about are the exception than the norm where you're at 2 distance and all the resources are already in the red, there's one cylon known, and you know that if there was another pre-sleeper cylon, he would've soft/hard revealed by now. In this case, humans actually will continue to support their own cause to get to sleeper phase to get the other cylon card at least
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander Olson
United States
Traverse City
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
What I was talking about was a clear case of humans going to lose so Took opportunies to draw extra loyalty cards knowing either there was a unrevealed cylon, which seemed unlikely, or i would have a 50/50 chance of getting a cylon card every time the effect "shuffle one YANAC card into the loyalty deck and draw one" and by doing so salvaging victory
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mindy G
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
By Meow Command!
badge
Mold the chaos into something beautiful
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think anyone who cares that much about winning a game of BSG is probably playing for the wrong reasons and probably isn't that much fun to play with.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Play Cylon from the start regardless of actual Loyalty? Bad play - reduces your chances of winning, and goes against the spirit of the game.

Play strongly pro-Human until and unless you actually hold a Cylon card in your hand? Fits the spirit of the game reasonably well, and gives a better chance of winning.

Play reasonably pro-Human but hedge your bets by accumulating personal power whenever it's not too expensive for your team? Absolutely on theme for the show, and probably gives the best chance of winning.

Play to improve your chances of switching sides when humans are in a hopeless situation? A legitimate tactic when aiming to win, but maybe a little "gamey" if you're playing socially.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan
United States
Lakewood
Washington
flag msg tools
mb
Quote:
But it shows once more that the Exodus loyalty deck rules are just stupid.

I think it’s better than Pegasus, from what I’ve seen. You can’t game the Exodus as a human to say “execute me to prove my innocence!” With that said, I think executions are more problematic than helpful to the game for that reason.

The other benefit of this is it increases paranoia. Is there a second cylon, or is he hidden in the loyalty deck? Nobody knows! I was reading one PBF game where nobody knew whether there was a second cylon or not (except the second cylon), and they praised the paranoia aspect of it.
(Heard of a game where someone thought the last card in the deck was YAAC and decided to execute himself to drop Morale to 0 and take the last card…only to find there was a good unrevealed player in the mix so he didn’t get to win).

---

Curtis, I agree. You can “try” to be a Cylon based on some choices you make, but they
1) Should not be actions negative to the Human cause and
2) You should play to support the humans until that happens

I picked Baltar in my last FTF game trying to be a cylon, but when I was dealt the YANACs I played pro-human.

---

Quote:
That way any game with no or one pre-sleeper cylon is a runaway game for humans, and any game with at least one pre-sleeper cylon is a almost runaway game for cylons. You get the first-round reveals this way, and it is pretty bad game for both humans and cylons, and pretty boring for the cylon (especially with the base game, and getting executed due to crisis result before my first turn as a cylon was not that fun with the expansions either). I would rather take Cylon Leader, there is at least the challenge of walking the fine line in the middle.

A working balance is to favor your own position when it is not in conflict with your team's position, i.e. not actively working against your current team.

Thematically it actually makes sense. In a FTF game, Baltar (human at the time, base game, pre-sleeper) inspected my card and saw I was a Cylon, but didn’t say anything. Post-sleeper, he drew the cylon card, so he kept quiet. In BSG, Baltar didn’t tell ANYONE who was and wasn’t a Cylon unless it was to keep himself out of the brig/airlock.

While most Humans on the show wanted Humans to win, there were a lot of people who looked at personal power or at their social circle more than they looked at everyone else (Cally et. al protecting chief protecting Boomer, Baltar making a bad strategy call to gain political power, Zarek using temporary power to make decisions nobody else in the higher echelons would like, high-level decisions regarding the Black Market, etc.).

While I agree that revealing right away has its benefits, it’s hard to gauge the effect paranoia has on the rest of the group. Revealing at the right time can be much bigger than revealing right away. For example:
-The reveal in this PBF game where a cylon brutally decimated the Humans in 1 turn.
-The first FTF game I played, I had the “Brig” YAAC from the start, so I waited until midgame when Boomer was in the brig. Because Baltar didn’t out me, I knew he was the second Cylon. So I helped Galactica take damage via SP on the turn prior to mine, revealed and threw someone in the brig. A few turns later, Baltar revealed (which he was outed at this point, so he had to) and damaged Galactica twice. It was a good combination of brigs and damages (especially putting the Humans with engineering in the brig) in rapid succession.

I disagree that the best option is to reveal right away, because it eliminates paranoia (a non-quantifiable factor that can reduce efficiency in cards and skill checks) and it eliminates the possibility of an “oooohhhhhh!” reveal later on. I would also say if you have an opportunity for a big one early on, taking it isn’t against the spirit of gameplay. It’s simply your best play.

---

Quote:
Just in case I wasn't clear in my posts, the people who do this are doing so in situations where the humans have no chance to very nil chance of winning.

I am of the opinion that in board games, you should play through even if there is a clear “winner”, because it will not obviously be the case. I recently played a game of FireFly where one person was almost done before anyone had started goal 1 (out of 3) and he wasn’t the winner. I’ve played a solo game of BSG where I was pretty much convinced at every turn that I was going to lose, but I kept trucking along and I actually won.

I’ve also played games where once the winner is clear (i.e. near the end of Carcassonne and only one player has a chance of getting the fields), other players give up in a very non-sportsmanlike manner, which leads me to associate giving up with that.

---

Quote:
Play strongly pro-Human until and unless you actually hold a Cylon card in your hand? Fits the spirit of the game reasonably well, and gives a better chance of winning.

Play reasonably pro-Human but hedge your bets by accumulating personal power whenever it's not too expensive for your team? Absolutely on theme for the show, and probably gives the best chance of winning.

Play to improve your chances of switching sides when humans are in a hopeless situation? A legitimate tactic when aiming to win, but maybe a little "gamey" if you're playing socially.

This is probably the biggest thing for me. It’s not about winning this game, but playing the next game. In my experience, people who rely on rule-lawyering or tantrums to help themselves win or who screw over their team for personal gain (especially in a 3-hour game) are not invited back quite so readily.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Stewart
United Kingdom
Newcastle-upon-Tyne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
skribs15 wrote:
Quote:
Play strongly pro-Human until and unless you actually hold a Cylon card in your hand? Fits the spirit of the game reasonably well, and gives a better chance of winning.

Play reasonably pro-Human but hedge your bets by accumulating personal power whenever it's not too expensive for your team? Absolutely on theme for the show, and probably gives the best chance of winning.

Play to improve your chances of switching sides when humans are in a hopeless situation? A legitimate tactic when aiming to win, but maybe a little "gamey" if you're playing socially.

This is probably the biggest thing for me. It’s not about winning this game, but playing the next game. In my experience, people who rely on rule-lawyering or tantrums to help themselves win or who screw over their team for personal gain (especially in a 3-hour game) are not invited back quite so readily.

It's a big thing, but it's also group-dependent - some groups are just fine with people making the play to help themselves win, and their only criticism of someone trying to turn Cylon would be that it may not be their best shot at winning. In the OP, it's claimed humans were doomed through lack of Fuel, but they made it to the Ionian Nebula without running out, so only Cylon sabotage or an unclaimed Personal Goal would actually finish humans off (and the PG could be worked around by arranging an execution) so it sounds like humans only lost because the OP decided to switch sides.

Anyway, there are also groups and players who believe that you should go all in for your current team, whichever that is at the time, and just accept that post-Sleeper Cylons are doomed.

Thematically, you can justify unswerving loyalty to the human cause even after being dealt a Cylon loyalty (Athena, some of the Final Five) or desperately hoping to turn Cylon (Baltar) or playing for personal power while you wait to decide/discover your ultimate allegiance.

It really does come down to what your group is happy with - some groups will expect behaviour near one end of the spectrum; others will collectively set aside the official win conditions in recognition of the "unfair" handicap imposed by a particular player.

Even from the perspective of trying to win as many games as possible, the best way to win more times is to play more times, which requires finding willing opponents, which requires not blindly pursuing victory at any cost, but staying within the unwritten rules as well as the written ones.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan
United States
Lakewood
Washington
flag msg tools
mb
As has been pointed out, playing for personal power doesn't necessarily mean you are going for the cylons or even not going 100% for the human team. In some cases it does (i.e. Baltar withholding information about his OPG), but in other cases it makes sense.

Remember, you will have 0-2 cylons (usually 1) pre-sleeper, and 1-2 cylons (89% chance of 2) post-sleeper, so holding on to more power (i.e. holding a large quorum deck, saving your OPG, etc.) give you more power to use when there's more cylons on the table, when you know who to trust, or even in the case of the Quorum hand, it will go to a Human if you reveal (meaning building it up will still help the humans).

If you happen to be a Cylon post-sleeper, then you change your strategy, but that doesn't mean that a build-power strategy is necessarily toeing the line.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls