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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Rules

Subject: Opponent rerolls my dice vs Tactical Officer rss

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Scott Steiner
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If my opponent forces me to reroll my attack (by an card like Ikat'Ika) can I still use a target lock and Tactical Officer to reroll them one more time?

Ikat'Ika "When defending , you may discard this card to force one ship that attacks you this round to re-roll any number of their attack dice of your choice (once per die).
This Upgrade costs +5 Squadron Points for any non-Jem'hadar ship."

Tactical Officer When removing your target lock from an opposing ship in order to reroll your attack dice, you may re-roll each attack die an additional time.
 
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Erin OConnor
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Depends.

You only get 1 reroll. So if your opponent forces you to reroll dice you can NOT use your target lock to reroll dice.

The tactical officer allows you a second reroll so you could use that to reroll them 1 extra time (or 2 times total)



Attacker rolls dice.
Defender modifies attack dice.
Attacker modifies attack dice.
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Kristoff Bergenholm
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rangarth wrote:
If my opponent forces me to reroll my attack (by an card like Ikat'Ika) can I still use a target lock and Tactical Officer to reroll them one more time?

Ikat'Ika "When defending , you may discard this card to force one ship that attacks you this round to re-roll any number of their attack dice of your choice (once per die).
This Upgrade costs +5 Squadron Points for any non-Jem'hadar ship."

Tactical Officer When removing your target lock from an opposing ship in order to reroll your attack dice, you may re-roll each attack die an additional time.

It.. should work.

In this case, with the Tactical Officer, you would effectively get one re-roll for each affected die.
 
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Dave Benhart
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No, the Tactical Officer would not allow a second reroll of the attack dice because you couldn't use the Target Lock to reroll the dice first. Each attack die can only be rerolled once during that attack. Total. Not rerolled once per player, rerolled once. Unless a card specifically says otherwise. Pg 14 of the rule book (in the black Modifying Dice Results box).

The Tactical Officer only triggers off using the Target Lock to reroll dice. Since Ikat'Ika has already rerolled the dice, the Target Lock cannot be used to reroll them again.

If Ikat'Ika was used to only reroll some of the attack dice, then the Target Lock could be used to reroll the rest of the dice, those that hadn't been rerolled once already. And the Tactical Officer would allow a second reroll of only those dice rerolled by the Target Lock.

The Tactical Officer only allows a second reroll of the attack dice IF the first reroll is from spending a Target Lock.

Attacker rolls attack dice.
Defender modifies the dice and uses Ikat'Ika and forces attacker to reroll all the attack dice.
Attacker can no longer spend the Target Lock to reroll attack dice, so the Tactical Officer cannot allow a second reroll. Attacker could use Battlestations, Spock w/Scan, Toreth, etc. to modify those dice however.
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Kristoff Bergenholm
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davedujour wrote:
No, the Tactical Officer would not allow a second reroll of the attack dice because you couldn't use the Target Lock to reroll the dice first. Each attack die can only be rerolled once during that attack. Total. Not rerolled once per player, rerolled once. Unless a card specifically says otherwise. Pg 14 of the rule book (in the black Modifying Dice Results box).

The Tactical Officer only triggers off using the Target Lock to reroll dice. Since Ikat'Ika has already rerolled the dice, the Target Lock cannot be used to reroll them again.

If Ikat'Ika was used to only reroll some of the attack dice, then the Target Lock could be used to reroll the rest of the dice, those that hadn't been rerolled once already. And the Tactical Officer would allow a second reroll of only those dice rerolled by the Target Lock.

The Tactical Officer only allows a second reroll of the attack dice IF the first reroll is from spending a Target Lock.

Attacker rolls attack dice.
Defender modifies the dice and uses Ikat'Ika and forces attacker to reroll all the attack dice.
Attacker can no longer spend the Target Lock to reroll attack dice, so the Tactical Officer cannot allow a second reroll. Attacker could use Battlestations, Spock w/Scan, Toreth, etc. to modify those dice however.

I disagree slightly - The act of spending a target lock gives you the ability to choose any number of dice and re-roll them.

Tactical Officer says that when spending a target lock in order to re-roll, you may re-roll those dice one additional time.
 
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Stephen Thorpe
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I disagree if your opponent uses Ikat'Ika to re-roll your dice then those dice cannot be re-rolled again at all unless a card effect allows it.

In this case you cannot re-roll by spending the target lock as the dice have already been re-rolled.

The Romulan Tactical Officer only allows an additional re-roll following the removal of the Target Lock in order to re-roll your dice.

If you can't spend the Target Lock to re-roll then you don't get the additional re-roll.

The problem I'm not sure of is if you've only re-rolled some of the dice with Ikat'Ika. Obviosly you can still use the Target Lock and Tactical Officer on the one's that haven't been re-rolled yet.

But will the one's that have been re-rolled by the defender still benefit from the Tactical Officer.

I'm tending to think not, but I'm not 100% sure on that one.

Edit: Ninja'd again. That's what I get for answering my phone in the middle of a post.
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Dave Benhart
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Magentawolf wrote:


I disagree slightly - The act of spending a target lock gives you the ability to choose any number of dice and re-roll them.

Tactical Officer says that when spending a target lock in order to re-roll, you may re-roll those dice one additional time.

Which is why I said
davedujour wrote:
If Ikat'Ika was used to only reroll some of the attack dice, then the Target Lock could be used to reroll the rest of the dice, those that hadn't been rerolled once already. And the Tactical Officer would allow a second reroll of only those dice rerolled by the Target Lock.

The Tactical Officer only allows a second reroll of the attack dice IF the first reroll is from spending a Target Lock.

But only those dice. And if the defender was really smart or wanted to take their chances they'd force a reroll of all the attack dice (even the blanks) to nerf the Tactical Officer.
 
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Rob Tsuk
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I don't agree with Dave's ruling either. The text of the card is

Quote:
When removing your target lock from an opposing ship in order to reroll your attack dice, you may re-roll each attack die an additional time.

Nothing on the card says that the first reroll has to have come from spending the target lock. It just says you can re-roll an additional time, allowing you to re-roll the defender modified dice once.

There's also nothing in the target locking rules that says you have to have eligible dice to spend your target lock.
 
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Kristoff Bergenholm
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davedujour wrote:
Magentawolf wrote:


I disagree slightly - The act of spending a target lock gives you the ability to choose any number of dice and re-roll them.

Tactical Officer says that when spending a target lock in order to re-roll, you may re-roll those dice one additional time.

Which is why I said
davedujour wrote:
If Ikat'Ika was used to only reroll some of the attack dice, then the Target Lock could be used to reroll the rest of the dice, those that hadn't been rerolled once already. And the Tactical Officer would allow a second reroll of only those dice rerolled by the Target Lock.

The Tactical Officer only allows a second reroll of the attack dice IF the first reroll is from spending a Target Lock.

But only those dice. And if the defender was really smart or wanted to take their chances they'd force a reroll of all the attack dice (even the blanks) to nerf the Tactical Officer.

My disagreement is that, as worded, the Tactical Officer grants each attack die the ability to be re-rolled one additional time, and this happens when you spend the target lock with the intent to preform a reroll. (As opposed to spending it for a Torpedo)

So..

Attacker Rolls.
Defender forces a reroll.
Attacker spends the Target Lock, with Tactical Officer, granting each of those dice an additional re-roll.
Attacker re-rolls those dice through the TL ability.
 
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Xander Fulton
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rtsuk wrote:
There's also nothing in the target locking rules that says you have to have eligible dice to spend your target lock.

I guess that's the question.

Can I 'spend my target lock to reroll my dice' with no eligible dice to re-roll via that target lock, just to trigger the Romulan Tactical Officer's "+1 reroll on each dice" ability? That ability appears to trigger when I spend a target lock to reroll, and doesn't specifically limit the re-rolls to only the dice the target lock could have re-rolled, nor does it seem to require the target lock actually be able to re-roll anything at all.
 
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Stephen Thorpe
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There are two issues here:

1. Can you spend a target lock to re-roll if there are no dice able to be re-rolled.

I would say no you have to be able to re-roll something in order to spend the Target Lock.

2. The second is the wording of the Tactical Officer when it is possible to re-roll at least some of the dice.

Had the wording been "a second time" or "an extra time" I might go along with the Tactical Officer allowing a re-roll on all dice.

However, the use of the wording "an additional time" seems to me to imply "In addition to the Target Lock re-roll"; Since the dice that the defender re-rolled don't get the Target Lock re-roll they also don't get the additional re-roll as it is contingent on the Re-roll from Target Lock not from any other source.

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Rob Tsuk
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Once we figure this one out we should take a crack at that angels on the head of a pin thing.
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Stephen Thorpe
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rtsuk wrote:
Once we figure this one out we should take a crack at that angels on the head of a pin thing.

Didn't we do that last week?
 
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Dave Benhart
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Magentawolf wrote:
My disagreement is that, as worded, the Tactical Officer grants each attack die the ability to be re-rolled one additional time, and this happens when you spend the target lock with the intent to preform a reroll. (As opposed to spending it for a Torpedo)

So..

Attacker Rolls.
Defender forces a reroll.
Attacker spends the Target Lock, with Tactical Officer, granting each of those dice an additional re-roll.
Attacker re-rolls those dice through the TL ability.

Only when removing a target lock. It's very clear:

Tactical Officer:
When removing your Target Lock from an opposing ship in order to re-roll your attack dice, you may re-roll each attack die an additional time.

You can ONLY re-roll "one additional time" (part B) IF you use the Target Lock to re-roll your attack dice (part A). If something prevents you from doing A, you can't do B.

So yes, you could spend the Target Lock to re-roll attack dice, not be able to re-roll any of them because they've already been re-rolled, and then you can't re-roll those dice again with the TacOfficer.
 
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Rob Tsuk
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Yes, the card requires that it be your intention to re-roll attack dice, not to use the lock to fire a weapon. It says nothing about being able to re-roll any of those dice.
 
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Paul Kitchin
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rtsuk wrote:
Nothing on the card says that the first reroll has to have come from spending the target lock. It just says you can re-roll an additional time, allowing you to re-roll the defender modified dice once.

There's also nothing in the target locking rules that says you have to have eligible dice to spend your target lock.

I agree with this reasoning.
 
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Xander Fulton
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SteRT wrote:
There are two issues here:

1. Can you spend a target lock to re-roll if there are no dice able to be re-rolled.

I would say no you have to be able to re-roll something in order to spend the Target Lock.

2. The second is the wording of the Tactical Officer when it is possible to re-roll at least some of the dice.

Had the wording been "a second time" or "an extra time" I might go along with the Tactical Officer allowing a re-roll on all dice.

However, the use of the wording "an additional time" seems to me to imply "In addition to the Target Lock re-roll";


Normally, I'd agree with that, but it's not what the card says. It does not say "an additional time after the target lock re-roll", JUST "an additional time". And, as they have been re-rolled once, using the TacOff would be an 'additional time'...
 
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Dave Benhart
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XanderF wrote:
SteRT wrote:
There are two issues here:

1. Can you spend a target lock to re-roll if there are no dice able to be re-rolled.

I would say no you have to be able to re-roll something in order to spend the Target Lock.

2. The second is the wording of the Tactical Officer when it is possible to re-roll at least some of the dice.

Had the wording been "a second time" or "an extra time" I might go along with the Tactical Officer allowing a re-roll on all dice.

However, the use of the wording "an additional time" seems to me to imply "In addition to the Target Lock re-roll";


Normally, I'd agree with that, but it's not what the card says. It does not say "an additional time after the target lock re-roll", JUST "an additional time". And, as they have been re-rolled once, using the TacOff would be an 'additional time'...

That is exactly what the Tactical officer says. Read all the text on the card. "When doing A, you can do B". So if don't do A, you can't do B.

"When removing your Target Lock from an opposing ship in order to re-roll your attack dice, you may re-roll each attack die an additional time."
 
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C. E. Freeman
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The rules have been parsed then parsed again. I'll just wait for Andrew and the official ruling.

As a side note, it would be a disappointing example of costing if a single use 5 point upgrade could be trumped by a reusable 3 point upgrade.
 
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Rob Tsuk
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davedujour wrote:

That is exactly what the Tactical officer says. Read all the text on the card. "When doing A, you can do B". So if don't do A, you can't do B.

"When removing your Target Lock from an opposing ship in order to re-roll your attack dice, you may re-roll each attack die an additional time."

I've read all the text. Where does it say that I can't remove my target lock to re-roll attack dice? The rules for target lock say that I can re-roll any of the dice; any includes none. So I can still remove my target lock to re-roll attack dice even if no dice are eligible to be re-rolled. I can then invoke Tactical Officer and use the additional re-roll it grants.

Anyway, that's the way I see it. It's a grey area and I could see a TO ruling either way. Perhaps Andrew will weigh in.
 
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Jeff Whaley
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I'm wanting to side with rtsuk on this one.

There is nothing that "prevents" you from spending the target lock on those dice that the defender made you re-roll.
The defender re-roll action just makes it so you can't make use of the TL action on those re-rolled dice.

For ease of argument, let's assume the defender made you re-roll all your dice.
You then "spend" your TL but it fails due to defender shenanigans (the aforementioned re-roll).
But wait! Your skilled Tactical Officer sees the problem caused and heroically sacrifices himself for the glory of the Praetor and the Empire and the disruptor banks fire.

You get the re-roll from the TO text due to having spent the TL (text doesn't say you have to SUCCESSFULLY use the TL - just that you have to spend it).

That's my interpretation on this sequence of events.
 
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Dave Benhart
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Sure, you could spend the Target Lock to re-roll zero dice. Then the Tactical Officer would allow you to re-roll those zero attack dice again. That's how the TO works. He only affects the attack dice that have already been re-rolled by a TL.

Otherwise, this sequence of events would be legal:
I roll 6 attack dice. 1 hit, 3 battlestations, 2 blanks
I spend my Target Lock to reroll the 2 blanks & get 2 (more) BS.
I then use my Tactical Officer to re-roll all 5 battlestations results.

I've never seen that ruled as legal. "you may re-roll each attack die an additional time" doesn't mean I can use the TL on some of the dice, then the TO on any of the dice. The Tactical Officer only affects the dice that were re-rolled by the Target Lock.
 
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Kristoff Bergenholm
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davedujour wrote:
Sure, you could spend the Target Lock to re-roll zero dice. Then the Tactical Officer would allow you to re-roll those zero attack dice again. That's how the TO works. He only affects the attack dice that have already been re-rolled by a TL.

Otherwise, this sequence of events would be legal:
I roll 6 attack dice. 1 hit, 3 battlestations, 2 blanks
I spend my Target Lock to reroll the 2 blanks & get 2 (more) BS.
I then use my Tactical Officer to re-roll all 5 battlestations results.

I've never seen that ruled as legal. "you may re-roll each attack die an additional time" doesn't mean I can use the TL on some of the dice, then the TO on any of the dice. The Tactical Officer only affects the dice that were re-rolled by the Target Lock.

That is not what I'm suggesting, this is how I view it working in this specific case:

Upon declaration of the intent to use a Target Lock to reroll a number of dice, the Tactical Officer kicks in and grants the ability for those dice to be re-rolled an additional time. The Target Lock is then used for the actual purpose of re-rolling.

I will grant that you're likely correct in the intent, but I'm a fan of this corner-case wording.
 
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Richard Shirley
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davedujour wrote:
Sure, you could spend the Target Lock to re-roll zero dice. Then the Tactical Officer would allow you to re-roll those zero attack dice again. That's how the TO works. He only affects the attack dice that have already been re-rolled by a TL.

Otherwise, this sequence of events would be legal:
I roll 6 attack dice. 1 hit, 3 battlestations, 2 blanks
I spend my Target Lock to reroll the 2 blanks & get 2 (more) BS.
I then use my Tactical Officer to re-roll all 5 battlestations results.

I've never seen that ruled as legal. "you may re-roll each attack die an additional time" doesn't mean I can use the TL on some of the dice, then the TO on any of the dice. The Tactical Officer only affects the dice that were re-rolled by the Target Lock.

This is my understanding of how the TO works too.
 
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Rob Tsuk
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davedujour wrote:
Sure, you could spend the Target Lock to re-roll zero dice. Then the Tactical Officer would allow you to re-roll those zero attack dice again. That's how the TO works. He only affects the attack dice that have already been re-rolled by a TL.

Otherwise, this sequence of events would be legal:
I roll 6 attack dice. 1 hit, 3 battlestations, 2 blanks
I spend my Target Lock to reroll the 2 blanks & get 2 (more) BS.
I then use my Tactical Officer to re-roll all 5 battlestations results.

I've never seen that ruled as legal.

I've never seen this ruled as illegal, either, and it seems legal if sub-optimal. What I don't recall is the FAQ ruling or rules text that supports your opinion over mine. I'd be happy to have it pointed out.
 
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