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Subject: Scenario 19 - Operations Range rss

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Apex
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The Russians have 15 armored units with an Operations Range of 3-6.
The game has 7 turns.

I think I don't understand how Operations Range works! lol.

I *think* each vehicle consumes 3 Operations and each infantry (or concealed vehicle) consumes 1.

So, in this scenario, if my understanding is not flawed, the Russians can use a maximum of 2 vehicles per turn. They can put their armor into Op Fire I suppose.

That said, with only 7 turns and 15 Russian vehicles how are the Russians supposed to both attack the Germans AND get their units deployed on the board?

I understand:
* You can make long range shots at penalty.
* You don't have to bring units on board (unless that's what I'm not getting here of course!)
* You can set units into Op Fire without consuming a command.

Thanks for the help!
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Jim Cote
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Haven't played yet, but:

"A unit or Decoy that starts and ends its move Concealed always counts as one unit against the Operations Range (even if it is a Vehicle)."
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Rolland Beach
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Operations points (OPs) define a sub-phase within a turn. A turn is not over until both sides have no more units they can activate.

example: Russian player activates 2 tanks: 6 OPs, German player activates 3 tanks/guns: 9 OPs. Then play passes back to the Russian ect. until ALL units have been used OR marked Op-fire. THEN the turn is marked over and clean-up phase is enacted.
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Ron A
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medlinke wrote:
The Russians have 15 armored units with an Operations Range of 3-6.
The game has 7 turns.

I think I don't understand how Operations Range works! lol.

I *think* each vehicle consumes 3 Operations and each infantry (or concealed vehicle) consumes 1.

So, in this scenario, if my understanding is not flawed, the Russians can use a maximum of 2 vehicles per turn. They can put their armor into Op Fire I suppose.

That said, with only 7 turns and 15 Russian vehicles how are the Russians supposed to both attack the Germans AND get their units deployed on the board?

I understand:
* You can make long range shots at penalty.
* You don't have to bring units on board (unless that's what I'm not getting here of course!)
* You can set units into Op Fire without consuming a command.

Thanks for the help!


The Ops Range isn't a limit PER TURN, it is a limit until the other side gets to move to THEIR Ops Range limit, but then you keep alternating until every unit is used. The Soviets can move/fire 2 units, then the German executes their ops range, then the Soviets get to go again, etc., until both sides have moved/fired everything they want to for that turn.

from rules section 4.1:

the Operations Phase of a turn does not end until both sides have Used or marked as Op Fire all of their units.
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Apex
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Perfect! Thanks everyone...on with the show.
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Guido Gloor
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medlinke wrote:
You can set units into Op Fire without consuming a command.

Marking an unit as Op Fire will also use up your operations range. Essentially, Op Fire is "these guys won't move this turn, I want to see what you do now".
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Beyer
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medlinke wrote:
The Russians have 15 armored units with an Operations Range of 3-6.
The game has 7 turns.

I think I don't understand how Operations Range works! lol.

...

Don't worry about not getting the rules. I'll post a review as soon as I play some face to face games. When you read what I have to say about the rulebook, you'll know you're not alone.
 
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Norman Smith
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Keith, I did a Scenario write up for 19 which may help you, especially the turn 3 section that shows this back and forth flow of the Operations during the phase.

Link http://battlefieldswarriors.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/ghost-pan...
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Thanks Norman.

Once I got this little bit - Everything else fell into place.

I am now on Turn 6 with 2 German Tanks gone and 11 Russian tanks knocked out. It's a nail biter!
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Quote:
When you read what I have to say about the rulebook, you'll know you're not alone.


Really? I get a lot of compliments on the rule book at this point.

The Ops Range thing, for example, I'm not sure how I can make it any more clearer. Plus, there is an extended example of play in the back of the rule book that shows the flow and the use of the Ops Range.

It might not be the rulebook, it might be the fact that there are different concepts in the game than other tactical games. When you learn a game that is similar to another game that you already know, it is always easier.
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Alex P
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One thing that's a definite barrier is that the bonuses and penalties aren't harmonized. I.e. all modifiers that help a unit do a thing should be +{some number} and all modifiers that hinder a unit to do a thing should be -{some number} (or reverse the signs, as long as it's consistent) because switching back and forth means I have to allot just a bit more effort to make sure the modifier should be to the roll or to the target for the roll, it takes me out of the game and makes learning and teaching it a more annoying/cumbersome.
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Jim Krohn
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Ironically, everything used to be harmonized much better.

With Ghost Panzer I switched the modifiers so that terrain impacts the Firepower now instead of the die roll. Doing so eliminated negative numbers.
 
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Beyer
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Jim Krohn wrote:
Quote:
When you read what I have to say about the rulebook, you'll know you're not alone.


Really? I get a lot of compliments on the rule book at this point.

The Ops Range thing, for example, I'm not sure how I can make it any more clearer. Plus, there is an extended example of play in the back of the rule book that shows the flow and the use of the Ops Range.

It might not be the rulebook, it might be the fact that there are different concepts in the game than other tactical games. When you learn a game that is similar to another game that you already know, it is always easier.

I know it's an asshole cliffhanger post to just leave out there for you to fret about. Sorry.

I'll address every issue I have with the rules when I post a review. Right now I'm through most of the rulebook and both intro scenarios. 'still waiting to find the time to play with a buddy before I round up an initial impression review.
 
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The rulebook is pretty solid. I'm just racing through everything to get together some good questions for Jim, put together a video demonstration of the game, and perhaps a video review. My omission about the Op Range had nothing to do with the rulebook not being clear...it was more than I'd read through 20 pages of rules and blanked on one of the first things that's explained!!!

The only glaring omission in the rulebook seems to be with artillery. If you deviate, you're asked to roll a d6. However, at no point is how you use that d6 explained. My assumption is that 1 = North and then you work clockwise for each subsequent number.

The only component issue I've run into is the lack of Concealed markers for the Russians. The Germans can borrow from SE, but Russians don't have enough to even do their setup for Scenario 20. This seems odd since there was that 40% sized countersheet...why not include another 2 rows of these concealment markers? There were also a couple markers that were printed on the wrong sides, but it's like 5 total in the game so I couldn't care less about those few counters..."stuff" happens!

That aside, I'm enjoying the game for what it is. I think it's probably one of the best introductory tactical scale wargames out there and Jim's clearly spent a lot of time thinking about how to make his gameplay suitably plausible without going overboard on the rules. It strikes a nice balance.
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Jim Krohn
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The only component issue I've run into is the lack of Concealed markers for the Russians. The Germans can borrow from SE, but Russians don't have enough to even do their setup for Scenario 20.


I don't think that is true. There are (I think) about 60 Russian Concealment markers in the game. They are on the back of every Vehicle, Gun, and Foxhole.
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Okay - I was only counting the 10 or so dedicated concealment/foxhole counters there. Perfect!

Am I right about the d6 implementation?
 
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Jim Krohn
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Am I right about the d6 implementation?


Yes, pick a direction as one and roll the die for the direction of the drift.
 
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Rolland Beach
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...creek,...squeek...creek...

Eyup...back in my day they had to explain 'scatter direction' in the rules...

puff, puff...I think it was SPI's 'Patrol' that first used artillery scatter, in was it 1977 or 1978, gets hazy...

now get off my lawn!

Seriously sometimes long time wargamers understand (hopefully correctly!) rules/terms learned from earlier rule sets.

Need to apply the 'man from mars test' to rules.
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heh! I thought I understand it, but since there's not a "true north" hex I wondered how Jim wanted it handled. It didn't take too much brain power to figure it out, but it is typically explained. And when a d6 is required in the rules it's generally provided (though again ... who doesn't have a d6 floating around or can just roll the d10 until they get a 1-6 result?)
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J. Emmett
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Jesse Custer wrote:
One thing that's a definite barrier is that the bonuses and penalties aren't harmonized. I.e. all modifiers that help a unit do a thing should be +{some number} and all modifiers that hinder a unit to do a thing should be -{some number} (or reverse the signs, as long as it's consistent) because switching back and forth means I have to allot just a bit more effort to make sure the modifier should be to the roll or to the target for the roll, it takes me out of the game and makes learning and teaching it a more annoying/cumbersome.

I haven't played yet but while waiting for GP to arrive I've been reading and re-reading the rules, and agree that that's the one bit of inelegance that has stuck out. (And: sometimes round up, sometimes round down—but you can't win'em all.)

At least as Jim says it boils down to: when Firing, all modifiers are applied to the Firepower (positive is beneficial); in all other cases, all modifiers are applied to the die roll (negative is beneficial).

Alternatively, you could just switch all the +/- signs on the player aid's fire modifiers so that all modifiers in the game are applied to the die roll, Screaming Eagles-style (I think). (Well, except for the Prof Firepower modifiers—but at least that's forgivable as an exception (to my mind) since they're only three potential +1s with a limit that's recognized easiest this way.)

Edit: I just read the Ghost Panzer #4 - Other Minor Tweaks thread, which explains the Firepower modifiers change, and has Jim's "line in the sand". Buuuuuut could all modifiers be switched to apply to the target number (Firepower, Morale, etc), and none to the dice rolls? There's still some confusion in the rules with lines like:

17.7 wrote:
Besides the +1 modifier, it is resolved as if it was a normal Op Fire attack. The -2 to Infantry for Final Op Fire does not impact the Firepower roll.

One of those modifiers is to the roll and the other to the target number, which may not be immediately clear to a new player (er, like me).
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Beyer
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Gravey wrote:
...
17.7 wrote:
Besides the +1 modifier, it is resolved as if it was a normal Op Fire attack. The -2 to Infantry for Final Op Fire does not impact the Firepower roll.

One of those modifiers is to the roll and the other to the target number, which may not be immediately clear to a new player (er, like me).

Another weird discrepancy in the rules, but!
If you reduce the firepower, you also reduce the chances of... well reducing the unit you're firing at. When you modify the die roll only, you alter the probability of success, but not the probability of hurting whatever you're shooting at.
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Stunke wrote:
If you reduce the firepower, you also reduce the chances of... well reducing the unit you're firing at. When you modify the die roll only, you alter the probability of success, but not the probability of hurting whatever you're shooting at.

That's not correct (that should already be clear by how easily the terrain modifiers are flipped in Ghost Panzer). Casualties come from the difference between the Firepower and the die roll, and that difference is the same whether it's the Firepower that's modified or the die roll.

So if you modify a die roll by +1, your roll will be between 2-11. Against a Casualty of 4, a Firepower 6 will cause a reduction on a modified roll of 2 (6 - 2 = 4), hits on 2-6 (50% chance to hit), and misses on 7-11 (50%).

If you instead modify the Firepower 6 by -1, then against the same Casualty of 4, a modified Firepower 5 will cause a reduction on a roll of 1 (5 - 1 = 4), hits on 1-5 (50%), and misses on 6-10 (50%).
 
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