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Subject: Kickstart or Wait? Budget Vs Opportunity! rss

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Christopher Boat
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I don't usually take part in the recommendation forums, but I seem to be having a crisis of too many kickstaters involving games I -must- own.

Normally, I could wait for the kickstarters to hit store shelves, especially since I'm saving up for a trip to GenCon this year, but these particular games never seem to show up anywhere but kickstater.

The first is Drum Roll
It looks like this one will eventually make it's way to Coolstuff, but Artipia has made SO MANY promos for this game that it seems silly not to buy it through the kickstater.

Basically, I buy the base game in march for $38 (before shipping) or I spend $50 (shipped) to order it with all of the promos, but don't get the game until June (when the kickstarter supposedly ships)

The second game is Fantastiqa
Again, there is the problem of SO MANY promos being available on the kickstater. The biggest problem here is, the promos cost quite a bit extra. Easily doubles the $ I'd spend on just the base game. I haven't heard any announcements about this one being available in shops again any time soon.

Third is Heroes Wanted. This one is mostly tempting me because of all the excellent stretch goals. I honestly don't know if these will be included in the base set or kickstarter exclusives.

So, my questions are-
Which games are worth getting promos for? Which games should I drop entirely? Should I wait for any of these to hit stores? Based on my collection/ratings, are there any games you think I would prefer or not like as much?

Any advice is appreciated!
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I can't comment on those games specifically, so I'll just talk a bit about Kickstarting in general.

We are now in a golden age of indie boardgaming. Crowdfunding has allowed for a boardgame explosion. Right now, in the current 30 day funding window, there are more than 10 times as many games asking for your support on Kickstarter than there were games put out by major publishers in the entire decade of the 1980s. (source: count of entires in wikipedias games by year pages for 1980-1989 compared to current KS tabletop games projects). So there are approximately 100x as many games being Kickstarted currently as there were being published at all 30 years ago.

This means that you should be discriminating with any Kickstarter dollars. There are just so many games being Kickstarted, that nobody can back all of the deserving ones. And even if you could back all of the deserving ones, you wouldn't have time to play them.

So since you have to be discriminating in Kickstarting, I recommend adding some KS-relevant questions on top of your usual decision making process for buying games. While my normal buying questions run along the lines of: "Can I afford this? Will it actually see play? Will it fit on my shelf? Do I know the designer? Is it too similar to a game I already have?" Whenever I back something on KS I ask myself additional questions such as:

* Will this actually get made ? -- Sadly, not all Kickstarter campaigns are entirely legit (*cough* E20 *cough*) and even some of the legit ones run into insurmountable difficulties. There is some chance that money given to a KS campaign will be wasted with no product delivered.

* Will this be successful enough that I will be able to get a copy from my FLGS and/or the secondary online market ? -- The big deal hugely successful campaigns (Ogre Designers Edition) usually end up publishing enough copies of a game that I can pick up a copy after publication is complete without having to back on Kickstarter.

* Is the developer capable and being honest about potential issues ? -- There are a lot of first-time designers Kickstarter projects. A lot of them overpromise and then run into difficulties they did not expect. I personally find this unprofessional and prefer not to back people who offer KS promos that cost too good to be true or promise impossibly fast shipping dates.

* Are there KS-exclusive incentives which will not be available later? I am a sucker for limited run "collectibles" related to games I like, even though the actual demand for KS promo materials for any given game is likely to be vanishingly small, I still wants me my exclusives.

Now, of course your own preferences will differ from mine, but I strongly recommend coming up with your own checklist of questions to run through before you back any game on Kickstarter -- that way you can feel more secure in your own decisions.
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Matt Brown
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RhodesN7 wrote:
Third is Heroes Wanted. This one is mostly tempting me because of all the excellent stretch goals. I honestly don't know if these will be included in the base set or kickstarter exclusives.


Looks like bargain bin fodder.
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matthean wrote:
RhodesN7 wrote:
Third is Heroes Wanted. This one is mostly tempting me because of all the excellent stretch goals. I honestly don't know if these will be included in the base set or kickstarter exclusives.


Looks like bargain bin fodder.


I'm a little afraid of this as well. The card art is high quality, but the game does seem a little too simplistic. I think I have a copy of Guardian Chronicles coming through a trade, so maybe doubling down on the Super Hero games isn't such a great idea...
 
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Michael F
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Fantastiqa is a game I enjoy, but it also takes a few plays to really appreciate it. When you play it, you'll be surprised at just how simple it seems. Once you figure out the underlying strategies though, the game does open up to having different paths to victory. I think the fact that you enjoy Dominion and Ascension enough should make Fantastiqa a safe bet to get, though I would probably still advise it as a try before you buy option.
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Christopher Boat
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newkillerstar27 wrote:
Fantastiqa is a game I enjoy, but it also takes a few plays to really appreciate it. When you play it, you'll be surprised at just how simple it seems. Once you figure out the underlying strategies though, the game does open up to having different paths to victory. I think the fact that you enjoy Dominion and Ascension enough should make Fantastiqa a safe bet to get, though I would probably still advise it as a try before you buy option.


I actually don't enjoy Dominion or Ascension all that much. I used to play Ascension all of the time, but eventually it was like the game was playing itself. Too simple. Not enough choices. As for Dominion, I just find it very basic. Perhaps that hints at a bad fate for Fantastiqa in my collection. However, theme can go a long way towards my enjoyment of a game, and Fantastiqa seems to have plenty of that.
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Michael F
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RhodesN7 wrote:
newkillerstar27 wrote:
Fantastiqa is a game I enjoy, but it also takes a few plays to really appreciate it. When you play it, you'll be surprised at just how simple it seems. Once you figure out the underlying strategies though, the game does open up to having different paths to victory. I think the fact that you enjoy Dominion and Ascension enough should make Fantastiqa a safe bet to get, though I would probably still advise it as a try before you buy option.


I actually don't enjoy Dominion or Ascension all that much. I used to play Ascension all of the time, but eventually it was like the game was playing itself. Too simple. Not enough choices. As for Dominion, I just find it very basic. Perhaps that hints at a bad fate for Fantastiqa in my collection. However, theme can go a long way towards my enjoyment of a game, and Fantastiqa seems to have plenty of that.


It does have theme going for it, but if you find Ascension and Dominion too simple, I'd steer clear of Fantastiqa. It's actually designed to be a family deck builder that children as young as 6 or so can play without too much difficulty. I would have gotten rid of it myself if my wife didn't like it so much. I've grown to like it, but it's still nowhere near any of my favorites. I'd say wait and try it.
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Christopher Boat
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newkillerstar27 wrote:
RhodesN7 wrote:
newkillerstar27 wrote:
Fantastiqa is a game I enjoy, but it also takes a few plays to really appreciate it. When you play it, you'll be surprised at just how simple it seems. Once you figure out the underlying strategies though, the game does open up to having different paths to victory. I think the fact that you enjoy Dominion and Ascension enough should make Fantastiqa a safe bet to get, though I would probably still advise it as a try before you buy option.


I actually don't enjoy Dominion or Ascension all that much. I used to play Ascension all of the time, but eventually it was like the game was playing itself. Too simple. Not enough choices. As for Dominion, I just find it very basic. Perhaps that hints at a bad fate for Fantastiqa in my collection. However, theme can go a long way towards my enjoyment of a game, and Fantastiqa seems to have plenty of that.


It does have theme going for it, but if you find Ascension and Dominion too simple, I'd steer clear of Fantastiqa. It's actually designed to be a family deck builder that children as young as 6 or so can play without too much difficulty. I would have gotten rid of it myself if my wife didn't like it so much. I've grown to like it, but it's still nowhere near any of my favorites. I'd say wait and try it.


Very helpful advice. Thank you! I'm definitely going to reconsider the purchase.
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newkillerstar27 wrote:
RhodesN7 wrote:
newkillerstar27 wrote:
Fantastiqa is a game I enjoy, but it also takes a few plays to really appreciate it. When you play it, you'll be surprised at just how simple it seems. Once you figure out the underlying strategies though, the game does open up to having different paths to victory. I think the fact that you enjoy Dominion and Ascension enough should make Fantastiqa a safe bet to get, though I would probably still advise it as a try before you buy option.


I actually don't enjoy Dominion or Ascension all that much. I used to play Ascension all of the time, but eventually it was like the game was playing itself. Too simple. Not enough choices. As for Dominion, I just find it very basic. Perhaps that hints at a bad fate for Fantastiqa in my collection. However, theme can go a long way towards my enjoyment of a game, and Fantastiqa seems to have plenty of that.


It does have theme going for it, but if you find Ascension and Dominion too simple, I'd steer clear of Fantastiqa. It's actually designed to be a family deck builder that children as young as 6 or so can play without too much difficulty. I would have gotten rid of it myself if my wife didn't like it so much. I've grown to like it, but it's still nowhere near any of my favorites. I'd say wait and try it.


Thanks for these helpful comments. Might I (as Fantastiqa's designer) throw in my own 2 cents? Fantastiqa can indeed be *simplified* to play with 6-year olds, but the regular game is not a kid's game. There's a fair bit of strategy, and I designed it specifically to avoid the "game that plays itself" problem mentioned here. Recently I saw a "complaint" on BGG that it was a game that rewarded strategy so much that it put casual gamers at a disadvantage! Clever use of the reshuffle tokens, abilities to purge your deck at statues, etc., I think (hope) make it a lot more chewy than its friendly theme might suggest. My goal with all my games is to offer accessibility to all, but to reward careful thinking. (Put another way, I aimed at elegance, not dumbing down the gameplay.) All this said, your own mileage might differ!

In any case, this Crits Happen critical review might be helpful in deciding:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/video/26915/fantastiqa/critical...
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Christopher Boat
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alfseegert wrote:
newkillerstar27 wrote:
RhodesN7 wrote:
newkillerstar27 wrote:
Fantastiqa is a game I enjoy, but it also takes a few plays to really appreciate it. When you play it, you'll be surprised at just how simple it seems. Once you figure out the underlying strategies though, the game does open up to having different paths to victory. I think the fact that you enjoy Dominion and Ascension enough should make Fantastiqa a safe bet to get, though I would probably still advise it as a try before you buy option.


I actually don't enjoy Dominion or Ascension all that much. I used to play Ascension all of the time, but eventually it was like the game was playing itself. Too simple. Not enough choices. As for Dominion, I just find it very basic. Perhaps that hints at a bad fate for Fantastiqa in my collection. However, theme can go a long way towards my enjoyment of a game, and Fantastiqa seems to have plenty of that.


It does have theme going for it, but if you find Ascension and Dominion too simple, I'd steer clear of Fantastiqa. It's actually designed to be a family deck builder that children as young as 6 or so can play without too much difficulty. I would have gotten rid of it myself if my wife didn't like it so much. I've grown to like it, but it's still nowhere near any of my favorites. I'd say wait and try it.


Thanks for these helpful comments. Might I (as Fantastiqa's designer) throw in my own 2 cents? Fantastiqa can indeed be *simplified* to play with 6-year olds, but the regular game is not a kid's game. There's a fair bit of strategy, and I designed it specifically to avoid the "game that plays itself" problem mentioned here. Recently I saw a "complaint" on BGG that it was a game that rewarded strategy so much that it put casual gamers at a disadvantage! Clever use of the reshuffle tokens, abilities to purge your deck at statues, etc., I think (hope) make it a lot more chewy than its friendly theme might suggest. My goal with all my games is to offer accessibility to all, but to reward careful thinking. (Put another way, I aimed at elegance, not dumbing down the gameplay.) All this said, your own mileage might differ!

In any case, this Crits Happen critical review might be helpful in deciding:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/video/26915/fantastiqa/critical...


Thank you for joining in the conversation Alf. You've definitely touched on a subject I was considering when it comes to purchasing Fantastiqa- Elegance vs Simplicity. So far, everything I've seen about Fantastiqa shows it to be a very elegant game. It's probably what drew me to the game in the first place.

My skepticism actually comes from past games I've purchased which have appeared elegant, but delivered an overly simplified experience. When done well, an artistic and elegant game can be refined from the burdens of heavier games. For example, Tokaido has earned a spot in my collection by doing something completely unique within it's simplicity. Not to mention being absolutely gorgeous to look at That's the sweet spot I'm hoping Fantastiqa falls into. I haven't given up on it yet. It could definitely still be the right game for me. Thank you for the link! I have a feeling I'll be watching a lot of reviews and gameplay videos.
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I'm currently a backer of Heroes Wanted as well and am going through the same issues myself. While the game looks fun, the art is great, and I and my family will probably enjoy it, I am on a limited budget and don't want to spend so much money on a hope. I have watched some of the previews, but none of them have completely convinced me to keep my backing. The awesome unlocked stretch goals are really tempting, but right now I'm leaning towards dropping my support and hoping it comes to retail where I can purchase it for less.
 
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RhodesN7 wrote:
alfseegert wrote:
newkillerstar27 wrote:
RhodesN7 wrote:
newkillerstar27 wrote:
Fantastiqa is a game I enjoy, but it also takes a few plays to really appreciate it. When you play it, you'll be surprised at just how simple it seems. Once you figure out the underlying strategies though, the game does open up to having different paths to victory. I think the fact that you enjoy Dominion and Ascension enough should make Fantastiqa a safe bet to get, though I would probably still advise it as a try before you buy option.


I actually don't enjoy Dominion or Ascension all that much. I used to play Ascension all of the time, but eventually it was like the game was playing itself. Too simple. Not enough choices. As for Dominion, I just find it very basic. Perhaps that hints at a bad fate for Fantastiqa in my collection. However, theme can go a long way towards my enjoyment of a game, and Fantastiqa seems to have plenty of that.


It does have theme going for it, but if you find Ascension and Dominion too simple, I'd steer clear of Fantastiqa. It's actually designed to be a family deck builder that children as young as 6 or so can play without too much difficulty. I would have gotten rid of it myself if my wife didn't like it so much. I've grown to like it, but it's still nowhere near any of my favorites. I'd say wait and try it.


Thanks for these helpful comments. Might I (as Fantastiqa's designer) throw in my own 2 cents? Fantastiqa can indeed be *simplified* to play with 6-year olds, but the regular game is not a kid's game. There's a fair bit of strategy, and I designed it specifically to avoid the "game that plays itself" problem mentioned here. Recently I saw a "complaint" on BGG that it was a game that rewarded strategy so much that it put casual gamers at a disadvantage! Clever use of the reshuffle tokens, abilities to purge your deck at statues, etc., I think (hope) make it a lot more chewy than its friendly theme might suggest. My goal with all my games is to offer accessibility to all, but to reward careful thinking. (Put another way, I aimed at elegance, not dumbing down the gameplay.) All this said, your own mileage might differ!

In any case, this Crits Happen critical review might be helpful in deciding:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/video/26915/fantastiqa/critical...


Thank you for joining in the conversation Alf. You've definitely touched on a subject I was considering when it comes to purchasing Fantastiqa- Elegance vs Simplicity. So far, everything I've seen about Fantastiqa shows it to be a very elegant game. It's probably what drew me to the game in the first place.

My skepticism actually comes from past games I've purchased which have appeared elegant, but delivered an overly simplified experience. When done well, an artistic and elegant game can be refined from the burdens of heavier games. For example, Tokaido has earned a spot in my collection by doing something completely unique within it's simplicity. Not to mention being absolutely gorgeous to look at That's the sweet spot I'm hoping Fantastiqa falls into. I haven't given up on it yet. It could definitely still be the right game for me. Thank you for the link! I have a feeling I'll be watching a lot of reviews and gameplay videos.



Well Fantastiqa is a different beast than most ks projects. It's a streamlined, discounted, reprint. So you have reams of data available. There's a Rahdo vid amount other things. I'm in for the whole pile for a few reasons:

1. Accessibility. Between the beautiful faux renaissance art, simple mechanics over deep strategy, and light touch of almost Xanthian humor I can get any from my girls to my parents to play with me.

2. Rick and Alf. These two are, as you can see, spending a lot of time answering questions and bending over backwards to get people what they want here.

3. Savings. When you think about shipping and the like you are really coming out ahead here.

But that's just my take feel free to read my blathering a here too lol: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/156957/item/3081574#it...
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SomewhatDamaged wrote:
and light touch of almost Xanthian humor


Thanks, Phil!

(And Xanth! Nods approvingly.) Loved those books -- and this story:

http://io9.com/5931929/in-1987-a-young-fantasy-fan-ran-away-...
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While I have some knowledgeable Fantastiqa fans/designers here, can someone tell me the difference between the Rucksack and Enchanted editions?
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It won't set you back much and is definitely worth checking out... Time Barons. It is available through Gamecrafter now and doesn't require you to kickstart. There aren't any promo items. The game is new and not well known thus far, but it is a lot of fun and worth checking out.
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RhodesN7 wrote:
While I have some knowledgeable Fantastiqa fans/designers here, can someone tell me the difference between the Rucksack and Enchanted editions?


The ks page has more details but in a nutshell they removed some duplicate cards and the board and cut the msrp in half.
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RhodesN7 wrote:
While I have some knowledgeable Fantastiqa fans/designers here, can someone tell me the difference between the Rucksack and Enchanted editions?


To add to the already helpful replies here, you can get detailed info on the exact differences between Enchanted and Rucksack editions here at this thread.

One other major difference is the price. The Enchanted Edition lists for $69.99. The Rucksack Edition you can currently get for $33.00, shipping included, on Kickstarter.
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I can only comment on two of the games mentioned.

I have Drum Roll and it's expansions (with 2 players) and I have not played without the expansions. As a thoroughly euro-style game, I really enjoy it and I would certainly recommend getting the extra cards, not only for variety to please the eye with colorfully saturated circus art, but for the extra opportunities they offer through different abilities. Based on your profile page, I think you might enjoy this one.


I also have and enjoy the enchanted version of Fantastiqa, again with all the original promo/extra cards...which I would also recommend. This is not a 'children's ' game, but can be toned-down to play with the younger lot. For me, the game is light, but very rich...(like French chocolate mousse). The game is easy to learn, but the options are varied, dynamic and interesting. This game is not easy to categorize, but again, based on your profile page, you may enjoy this one, but you might find the theme a bit light or frivolous. Maybe.

I recommend both of these games with promos/expansions. If it's through Kickstarter or another way is your choice to make.

Good luck.

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alfseegert wrote:
RhodesN7 wrote:
While I have some knowledgeable Fantastiqa fans/designers here, can someone tell me the difference between the Rucksack and Enchanted editions?


To add to the already helpful replies here, you can get detailed info on the exact differences between Enchanted and Rucksack editions here at this thread.

One other major difference is the price. The Enchanted Edition lists for $69.99. The Rucksack Edition you can currently get for $33.00, shipping included, on Kickstarter.


I'm definitely a little sad to see the board go, and as a completionist I cringe at the idea of not having every card, but that thread does a really great job of explaining why it's still the same game even without those components. Plus, since I would almost certainly be pledging for expansions along with the Rucksack edtion, I would probably miss the cards even less.
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winterplum wrote:
I can only comment on two of the games mentioned.

I have Drum Roll and it's expansions (with 2 players) and I have not played without the expansions. As a thoroughly euro-style game, I really enjoy it and I would certainly recommend getting the extra cards, not only for variety to please the eye with colorfully saturated circus art, but for the extra opportunities they offer through different abilities. Based on your profile page, I think you might enjoy this one.


I also have and enjoy the enchanted version of Fantastiqa, again with all the original promo/extra cards...which I would also recommend. This is not a 'children's ' game, but can be toned-down to play with the younger lot. For me, the game is light, but very rich...(like French chocolate mousse). The game is easy to learn, but the options are varied, dynamic and interesting. This game is not easy to categorize, but again, based on your profile page, you may enjoy this one, but you might find the theme a bit light or frivolous. Maybe.

I recommend both of these games with promos/expansions. If it's through Kickstarter or another way is your choice to make.

Good luck.



Thank you for taking the time to look through my collection and making those comparisons. You've been extremely helpful in my decision process.

I am currently leaning towards getting both Drum Roll and Fantastiqa, but dropping Heroes Wanted.
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Wait, there's another Drum Roll kickstarter?

*looks, but can't find it*

I've played Drum Roll with all the promos from the previous KS version. I haven't played it bare and wouldn't be inclined to-- even with the promos, the variation in abilities/performers seems pretty low, and the promos provide a lot of the variety.

If you're sure you want the game, I'd say that stack of promos is totally worth $12.

That said, I don't know which promos the new campaign you're talking about comes with.
 
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grasa_total wrote:
Wait, there's another Drum Roll kickstarter?

*looks, but can't find it*

I've played Drum Roll with all the promos from the previous KS version. I haven't played it bare and wouldn't be inclined to-- even with the promos, the variation in abilities/performers seems pretty low, and the promos provide a lot of the variety.

If you're sure you want the game, I'd say that stack of promos is totally worth $12.

That said, I don't know which promos the new campaign you're talking about comes with.


Drum Roll is avaialable through the "Among the Stars: The Promos" campaign as an add-on. You have to pay $2 to get access to the add-on market, then $48 for Drum Roll plus all 37 promos from the previous kickstarters, for a total of $50 shipped.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/magecompany/among-the-s...
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Chris Gallo
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Two games that I kickstarted I personally can't wait to get my hands on. Tiny Epic Kingdoms packed so much game into a small little box and all the stretch goals and kickstarter exclusive stuff made it a great deal. Another is Two Rooms and a Boom! I can't wait for this one either. The amount we're getting in that box as well as well as extras from the stretch goals made it more than worth it. I like kickstarting things as long as the price is right because of all the extras you can get that might only be available if you contribute to the campaign.
 
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generally i feel like there are so so many readily available, incredibly good games that i havent played yet that throwing money at a possibly good game that might arrive 6-12 months down the road doesnt seem like the way to go. there are exceptions to everything though.
 
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Christopher Boat
United States
Ankeny
Iowa
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Ah_Pook wrote:
generally i feel like there are so so many readily available, incredibly good games that i havent played yet that throwing money at a possibly good game that might arrive 6-12 months down the road doesnt seem like the way to go. there are exceptions to everything though.


Understandable, but this isn't a discussion about whether or not kickstarter is a valid place to purchase games. There's plenty of other forums debating that fact. I've already decided I enjoy using kickstarter to support games and yes, sometimes get some spiffy promos in return.
 
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