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Android: Netrunner – Fear and Loathing» Forums » Rules

Subject: Question about Restoring Face rss

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Izya Kazman
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Quote:
Restoring Face
Operation
Jinteki (2 inf)
Cost: 0
Trash one of your installed sysops, executives, or clones. If you do, remove up to 2 bad publicity.


Does trashed card need to be rezzed?
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Ian Toltz
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If a card isn't rezzed, it doesn't have any subtypes. So yes, implicitly the card must be rezzed.
 
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Roberta Yang
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Asmor wrote:
If a card isn't rezzed, it doesn't have any subtypes.

Does it not? If I recall correctly, Regions still have the Region subtype and must abide by the one-region-per-server rule even while unrezzed.
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Cedric Bertolini
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Good point. I think that if the card had to be rezzed, the text would have said "one of your rezzed sysops,...". Like Security Subcontract.
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mplain
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Well, if it's not rezzed when the corp trashes it, then there's no reason to put it into archives face-up, neither does Restoring Face instruct to reveal the trashed card. So the runner would have no way of knowing that the corp actually performed a legal action just now.

That would require the players to keep track of the face-down cards in archives, which would be a major pain in the ass. So I hope Lukas rules what Asmor said, Regions being a specific exception to the rule.

In any case, I really love the flavor of this card!

Глаз-алмаз, Петя!

EDIT: Here's a similar issue with Subliminal Message
 
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Micheal Keane
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There are a lot of thing the Corp can do without the Runner being 100% assured that it's a legal action. ie: Installing an agenda as ice, advancing a card that can't be advanced, installing etc.

This is a harder to detect but in a game with this much bluffing, you have to trust that players won't go out of their way to cheat.

In any case, the card may not be active, but it still has the keyword. You'd trash the card and it'd go to archives facedown.
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Adam Perry
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if a card doesn't have any subtypes while unrezzed, shouldn't it not have any active text either, making cards like ambush assets impossible to advance?

I think we'll see an errata saying if an unrezzed card is sacrificed, it must be revealed to the runner
 
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Micheal Keane
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Form the rule book
Quote:
Inactive: An inactive card’s abilities do not affect the game
and cannot be triggered.


All it says is that the abilities can't be used. The text is still there and so are the keywords.

(And of course, if the ability says it triggers even when it's not active, then the card text overrules this statement.)
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Ben Finkel
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Well, Ambushes don't explicitly state that they work even when inactive, merely that they work "when the runner accesses" them. This had to be remedied in the FAQ.

It's a bit mysterious how Restoring Face and Subliminal Messaging interact with face-down information.
 
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Chris Long
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Here's some GG just for quoting the card text. I hate when people expect you to have every card memorized. Especially when they are arguing the finer points of specific wording.
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Tobias Maier
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Sometimes I´d like to have some really detailed rules like in Magic for example.

They could create much more interesting effects in the game. Timing is really strange in Netrunner, constant > triggered > activated is fine but a stack for triggered and activated abilities is way more flexible.
 
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Rob Jennings
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salty53 wrote:

Does it not? If I recall correctly, Regions still have the Region subtype and must abide by the one-region-per-server rule even while unrezzed.


Is this true? I've played games under the opposite logic, that since they were unrezzed it was okay, like unique cards.

Edit: Yep, page 13 of the rulebook seems to make the pretty explicit. No more dropping 3 sansans facedown in a server and figuring the runner can't trash all of them in one turn.
 
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Mychal
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Toobiased wrote:
Sometimes I´d like to have some really detailed rules like in Magic for example.

They could create much more interesting effects in the game. Timing is really strange in Netrunner, constant > triggered > activated is fine but a stack for triggered and activated abilities is way more flexible.

Just say NO to stacks! gulp
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Ian Toltz
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Skylar114 wrote:
Toobiased wrote:
Sometimes I´d like to have some really detailed rules like in Magic for example.

They could create much more interesting effects in the game. Timing is really strange in Netrunner, constant > triggered > activated is fine but a stack for triggered and activated abilities is way more flexible.

Just say NO to stacks! gulp


What is your issue with the stack?

It makes sense, it's intuitive, it allows for rich interaction between the players...
 
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Chris Long
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Asmor wrote:
What is your issue with the stack? It makes sense, it's intuitive...


Yes. And there are so many examples from real life that work just like that. I always hate it when I'm first in line at the grocery store and have to wait for everyone else to check out before I can go. And lord help you if even more people show up in line. I've had to stand there for hours sometimes when it's really busy.
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radynski wrote:
Asmor wrote:
What is your issue with the stack? It makes sense, it's intuitive...


Yes. And there are so many examples from real life that work just like that. I always hate it when I'm first in line at the grocery store and have to wait for everyone else to check out before I can go. And lord help you if even more people show up in line. I've had to stand there for hours sometimes when it's really busy.


You seem to be confusing stacks and queues.

Lines at grocery stores are examples of queues. Queues are first in, first out (FIFO).

An example of a stack is, well, a stack. If there's a stack of plates at a buffet, the one on top is the one most recently placed there. Stacks are last in, first out (LIFO).

The difference is important; that's why it's called The Stack and not The Queue. Your complaint makes about as much sense as complaining that no matter how hard you press the brake pedal, your car won't move.
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Chris Long
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Asmor wrote:
You seem to be confusing stacks and queues.


No, I'm really not. As a programmer for 20+ years, I know the difference.

What I AM doing, is mocking your suggestion that the stack system in magic is intuitive, which it is most definitely not.

Your stack of plates example doesn't really pertain to the discussion at all. That talks about physical objects laid on top of each other, and which one gets used next. That's just a stack of objects.

The MTG "stack" on the other hand, is an organizational structure for determining the order of events. There are NO real-world examples for where a series of events are begun and then executed in opposite order backward through time. No one outside of Magic players would think that makes sense at all. Thus I am being kind when I say the idea that it is intuitive is laughable.

---------------

But that is all arguing a specific poorly chosen word you used, which is derailing this thread into the incredibly pendantic. So my apologies to the community as a whole for this tangent.

Coming back closer to the topic, I still have to take issue with your suggestion that the stack should be used at all. (and actually I don't think this was your suggestion at all, it appears to be Tobias' - of course you defended it which is how we arrived here, but I digress...)

The stack is simply one system for dealing with event resolution. There's no reason why LIFO is better than FIFO - it isn't. They are just different models that serve the same purpose. When designing a card game of this nature you must choose one and just go with it. Suggesting that they change systems a year and a half into the life of the game just seems ridiculous to me.
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I totally agree with radynski on this, stack is only intuitive for long-time MtG players. When I just started playing Magic it used to remind me of playing 'cops and robbers' as a child, when you ambush someone and shoot him, and he's like "as I'm falling, with my last strength I shoot you back and kill you". Wtf dude?!
So yeah, the Netrunner system of events (no 'in response') is not intuitive for old-time MtG players, but it is for everyone else.
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Tobias Maier
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The real life application is you putting the cards on top of each other while playing the game! It couldn´t be more visual.

A queue cannot be moddeled with cards as easily. And a queue allows no interaction. I don´t think they´re going to print counterspells any time soon. But I think a little more interaction with your opponents turn would be fun.

Yeah I know magic has a lot of abilities on the stack. Those cannot be stacked on top of each other quite as visually.

I should really stop bringing up magic in Netrunner conversations. Too many people play Netrunner strictly because it´s different.
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Peter O
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mplain wrote:
the Netrunner system of events (no 'in response') is not intuitive for old-time MtG players, but it is for everyone else.


Well, except for REALLY old Magic players like myself who played Magic BEFORE the stack. Back in my day, you used to be able to properly interrupt someone. None of this nansy-pampsy new fangled first-in-gets-to-wait-until-the-cows-come-home having to remember what I did 30 minutes ago timing...
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Toobiased wrote:
I should really stop bringing up magic in Netrunner conversations.

I agree, but it seems most people seem to use "mill", "splash", "tutor" and so forth, bringing it up implicitly. soblue

Quote:
Too many people play Netrunner strictly because it´s different.

I have no idea how to measure "too many". I don't play Magic, or even think about it (even by way of comparison) when I play any card game. Perhaps I'm in the minority.
 
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tranenturm wrote:
Well, except for REALLY old Magic players like myself who played Magic BEFORE the stack. Back in my day, you used to be able to properly interrupt someone.


Eh? Second main phase, you say? You and your hippy nonsense can get the hell off my porch!
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Rob Jennings
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waddball wrote:

I agree, but it seems most people seem to use "mill", "splash", "tutor" and so forth, bringing it up implicitly. soblue


Mill and Tutor don't really bother me so much, because they're extremely descriptive and exactly equivalent. Splash is a little vague, but it's generally obvious in context what a person means. These effects are so generic and widely used that it doesn't even have the hipster smugness associated with things like calling credits "Bits".

I think that, in our little subculture, milling and tutoring are like Kleenex: ubiquitous enough to be generic.
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sechen_rob wrote:
I think that, in our little subculture, milling and tutoring are like Kleenex: ubiquitous enough to be generic.

You're almost certainly right. I'll always have to do a double take with them (I've only dabbled in Magic and didn't like it much, so they are not descriptive or equivalent for me).
 
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Tim Meng
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Toobiased wrote:
Too many people play Netrunner strictly because it´s different.


Generally speaking, when anyone plays a specific game, it's because it is strictly different from every other game ever made... unless there's a person who will only play 2nd-print-run versions of a game, as opposed to 1st-print-run versions. I personally have never run into anyone who knows (or cares) how to tell the difference, but you never know...
 
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