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Subject: Pure Cardassian build for OP6 rss

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Kevin Smith
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For the first event of OP6 I thought I'd run a pure Cardassian build as a change of pace.

Currently I've got one Koranak, one Kraxon, and the fighters.
This seems to be a "reason" build, but I was wondering if it'd be worthwhile picking up a second copy of either of the ships for the extra upgrades?

Kevin
 
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Ted Kay
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Out of the two, the Keldon is a stronger offensive offering than an unnamed Galor. That would be my recommendation.
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Scott Kelly
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The main use for the Kraxon is to pair the named ship's ability with something like Counter Attack and/or Alexander for extra shenanigans. However, if you're staying in-faction (like is the implication I get from this post), then those aren't options.

Therefore, I'd go Koranak (26), generic Koranak (24), and Hideki fighters (20) as the 3 ships. I personally think they both must have the cloaks (4/each) and also Dorsal Weapons Array (3/each). That would be 84 points, leaving another 16. Gul Dukat is an obvious must-have captain (5, putting you up to 89). As far as the other captain, IF you are going pure Cardassian, your best options (Gul Evek and Gul Danar, depending on if you want defense or offense) are both 2 SP. That puts you at 91 SP. You likely put Boheeka on the first ship with Gul Dukat for 2 SP, putting you up to 93. Then you could round it up to 99 SP with 2x Tetryon Emissions (3 SP/each) to help protection. (Cloaks + Tetryon Emissions on both ships would give you 8 defense die if both are active.)

I personally think that is your best option(s), given that it seems you are staying in Cardassian stuff.
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Kevin Smith
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Thanks for the help all.

For the first six OPs I've been doing pure faction builds.
I mainly play Feds, but for a little variety, in OP5 I did four ship Klingon builds (which was a lot of fun).

For the first OP6 event I though I'd again do something different, which is where the Cardassians come in. Once I get the Fed fighters, I'll probably go back to them for the second OP6 event.

I wasn't planning on using the cloak for the Koranak, which is why I was going to use the Kraxon. But if you think a two Keldon class build would be a little better than the Koranak and the Kraxon, I'll give that a try.

Kevin
 
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Eric B.
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drscottkelly wrote:

Therefore, I'd go Koranak (26), generic Koranak (24), and Hideki fighters (20) as the 3 ships. I personally think they both must have the cloaks (4/each) and also Dorsal Weapons Array (3/each). That would be 84 points, leaving another 16. Gul Dukat is an obvious must-have captain (5, putting you up to 89). As far as the other captain, IF you are going pure Cardassian, your best options (Gul Evek and Gul Danar, depending on if you want defense or offense) are both 2 SP. That puts you at 91 SP. You likely put Boheeka on the first ship with Gul Dukat for 2 SP, putting you up to 93. Then you could round it up to 99 SP with 2x Tetryon Emissions (3 SP/each) to help protection. (Cloaks + Tetryon Emissions on both ships would give you 8 defense die if both are active.)


This is excellent advice. I'm planning on running Dominion in OP6 as well, and I've been going back and forth between the defensive upgrades (Cloak, Tetryon Emissions, etc.). Their the only way to get extra survivability, but they're so darned expensive in terms of action-cost.

The problem with Dominion, if you want to run them pure, is that they have low skill captains (comparatively) that won't fire until well after most alpha strikes and their defensive buffs are very costly in terms of actions. Those two things work against one another: you ships have to be able to weather all the attacks of an opponent's fleet before they get to return fire AND your defensive options are limited and have high action investment.


 
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Kevin Smith
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RogueThirteen wrote:
drscottkelly wrote:

Therefore, I'd go Koranak (26), generic Koranak (24), and Hideki fighters (20) as the 3 ships. I personally think they both must have the cloaks (4/each) and also Dorsal Weapons Array (3/each). That would be 84 points, leaving another 16. Gul Dukat is an obvious must-have captain (5, putting you up to 89). As far as the other captain, IF you are going pure Cardassian, your best options (Gul Evek and Gul Danar, depending on if you want defense or offense) are both 2 SP. That puts you at 91 SP. You likely put Boheeka on the first ship with Gul Dukat for 2 SP, putting you up to 93. Then you could round it up to 99 SP with 2x Tetryon Emissions (3 SP/each) to help protection. (Cloaks + Tetryon Emissions on both ships would give you 8 defense die if both are active.)

This is excellent advice. I'm planning on running Dominion in OP6 as well, and I've been going back and forth between the defensive upgrades (Cloak, Tetryon Emissions, etc.). Their the only way to get extra survivability, but they're so darned expensive in terms of action-cost.

The problem with Dominion, if you want to run them pure, is that they have low skill captains (comparatively) that won't fire until well after most alpha strikes and their defensive buffs are very costly in terms of actions. Those two things work against one another: you ships have to be able to weather all the attacks of an opponent's fleet before they get to return fire AND your defensive options are limited and have high action investment.

I've run several practice games with them, and they work pretty much as you've described.
I'm wondering if a slight tweak to Scott's advice would be viable also. The Koranak could use the cloak, while the Kraxon could have the Tetryon Emissions. This would give both ships reasonable defense, while still being able to use the Kraxon's ability.

Kevin

 
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Scott Kelly
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If you're worried about platforms, keep in mind the Koranak has the 2-attack special ability, and you can always put Forward Weapons Grid on ship #2.

RogueThirteen wrote:
The problem with Dominion, if you want to run them pure, is that they have low skill captains (comparatively) that won't fire until well after most alpha strikes and their defensive buffs are very costly in terms of actions.


If it's Dominion-pure, you can make due with Gul Dukat and perhaps some Weyoun(6)-Ikat'ika shenanigans (one the 4th Div comes out). If it's strictly Cardassian, it is worse.

I think the biggest problem are the maneuver dials for the Koranak and Kraxon (as well as the 4th Division when it comes out). Neither the Koranak nor the Kraxon have a reverse or a U-turn maneuver...plus both of their turns (2 and 3) are red. Every other ship (other than the 4th Division) have at least one white turn maneuver and then a 2nd white/red turn as well. Also the Kraxon doesn't have the 4-bank maneuvers of the Koranak, so it's even worse off. The 180 arcs help, but those U-turn (and even reverse) maneuvers when I play other factions are HUGE.

In a relatively wide-open scenario like OP3, OP4, or OP6, the maneuvering is more forgiving. But if you have a scenario with a lot of debris, obstacles, etc (OP1, OP2, and OP5), it's worse.
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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Do you have admiral's orders in play? I've been doing pretty well with 2 Keldons + Kraxon and a flagship with United Force, and am thinking about stripping down those ships to get

Koranak + Gul Dukat + Boheeka + Dorsal = 36
Generic Keldon + Luaran + Dorsal Weapons Array = 27
Kraxon + Sar = 27
Fighters = 20

This'll do a lot less dice fixing than my usual setup, where Boheeka + Gul Dukat and the Breen Aide on the Dominion Flagship with a free scan really help, but the sheer firepower might be enough to do quite a lot, and the 4 bank out of the starting gate for two Keldons might be able to deter a DS9 rush.
 
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Kevin Smith
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PenguinBonaparte wrote:
Do you have admiral's orders in play?

Unfortunately no.
Otherwise you can bet I'd be taking advantage of both UF and SF.

PenguinBonaparte wrote:

I've been doing pretty well with 2 Keldons + Kraxon and a flagship with United Force, and am thinking about stripping down those ships to get
Koranak + Gul Dukat + Boheeka + Dorsal = 36
Generic Keldon + Luaran + Dorsal Weapons Array = 27
Kraxon + Sar = 27
Fighters = 20
This'll do a lot less dice fixing than my usual setup, where Boheeka + Gul Dukat and the Breen Aide on the Dominion Flagship with a free scan really help, but the sheer firepower might be enough to do quite a lot, and the 4 bank out of the starting gate for two Keldons might be able to deter a DS9 rush.

Yeah, this looks like it'd be fun to play.
I might try to put together a smaller variant of it.
Thanks for the input.

Kevin
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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Maybe do the 3 ship then. I'd be hesitant to go out without Dukat and Boheeka, since you can really get hurt with the low skill captains sometimes.
 
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Eric B.
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PenguinBonaparte wrote:
I've been doing pretty well with 2 Keldons + Kraxon and a flagship with United Force, and am thinking about stripping down those ships to get

Koranak + Gul Dukat + Boheeka + Dorsal = 36
Generic Keldon + Luaran + Dorsal Weapons Array = 27
Kraxon + Sar = 27
Fighters = 20


This won't work with United Force. Remember, United Force doesn't give a general "10 bonus points" to work with, but rather lets you attach ten points worth of upgrades. Captains and Resources don't count as upgrades, so you could only put those free points towards:

Boheeka (2)
Dorsal (3)
Dorsal (2*) *because of Luaran, but I'm not sure her discount applies to upgrades selected via United Force...either way it won't affect the above build.

The cost of Dukat, Luaran, Sar, and the Fighters can't be covered with the United Force.
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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Damn, I didn't realize that didn't work for captains! Luckily at least my previous builds have all been legal though. This'll make the 4 ship really unattractive. Would probably have to downgrade to all generic ships, or at least downgrade the Koranak. For Luaran, the discount goes to the upgrade, not her, so that won't help at all for this problem. Marking my United Force Upgrades with a *

Maybe Keldon (24) + Dukat (5) + Boheeka (2)* + DWA (3)* = 34
Keldon (24) + Luaran (2) + DWA (3-2=1)* = 27
Galor (24) + Sar (1) = 27
Fighters (20)

That would just hit 100 before the United Force. I guess that would let me put Glin Telle or somebody on the Galor with Sar, or give Dukat Captured Intelligence. Not sure how I feel about losing 3hp from this list though.

It's also worth watching this video traitorarmor posted in which he obliterated a Cardassian force with great maneuvering. You have to be really careful when flying these ships.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wehtvzQN_cI
 
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Kevin Smith
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PenguinBonaparte wrote:
Damn, I didn't realize that didn't work for captains! Luckily at least my previous builds have all been legal though. This'll make the 4 ship really unattractive. Would probably have to downgrade to all generic ships, or at least downgrade the Koranak. For Luaran, the discount goes to the upgrade, not her, so that won't help at all for this problem. Marking my United Force Upgrades with a *
Maybe Keldon (24) + Dukat (5) + Boheeka (2)* + DWA (3)* = 34
Keldon (24) + Luaran (2) + DWA (3-2=1)* = 27
Galor (24) + Sar (1) = 27
Fighters (20)
That would just hit 100 before the United Force. I guess that would let me put Glin Telle or somebody on the Galor with Sar, or give Dukat Captured Intelligence. Not sure how I feel about losing 3hp from this list though.
It's also worth watching this video traitorarmor posted in which he obliterated a Cardassian force with great maneuvering. You have to be really careful when flying these ships.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wehtvzQN_cI

Actually, I think a four ship build *can* work (based, of course, on your definition of "work").

I played the following list in a practice game today, and didn't feel either outmaneuvered or outgunned.

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Dukat [5]

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Gul Danar [2]

Cardassian Galor class [24]
Generic captain [0]

Hideki class fighters [20]

Total [99]

I didn't play the second build, but it's simply a variant of the first to upgrade the Galor to a Kraxon, and downgrade Gul Danar to a generic captain.

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Dukat [5]

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Generic captain [0]

Kraxon [26]
Generic captain [0]

Hideki class fighters [20]

Total [99]

You could also keep the first build and upgrade one of the Keldons if you prefer its ability over the Kraxon's ability.

I certainly don't think either of the above lists will be as competitive as a good cross-factional build, but I definitely think either will be playable (especially in pure faction builds).

Kevin
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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Can you stomach being pure Dominion rather than pure Cardassian? The mileage I've gotten out of Sar, 1pt. for an extra defense die, is phenomenal. If you put him on the Kraxon that'll discourage enemies from targeting it first, letting you get the most out of its shield effect.
 
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PenguinBonaparte wrote:
Can you stomach being pure Dominion rather than pure Cardassian? The mileage I've gotten out of Sar, 1pt. for an extra defense die, is phenomenal. If you put him on the Kraxon that'll discourage enemies from targeting it first, letting you get the most out of its shield effect.


Hmm..going from 1 to 2 defense dice has not made my Kraxon survive any longer. Its still usually the first target for my opponents. But I don't really think there is a 'win' scenario for my opponents when deciding to target the Kraxon over the Koranak.
 
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Kevin Smith
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PenguinBonaparte wrote:
Can you stomach being pure Dominion rather than pure Cardassian? The mileage I've gotten out of Sar, 1pt. for an extra defense die, is phenomenal. If you put him on the Kraxon that'll discourage enemies from targeting it first, letting you get the most out of its shield effect.

I appreciate the head's up on Sar, but at least for the present time I'm sticking with totally pure builds. So if I end up running the Cardassian ships I'll have to gut it out with their captains.
Have you found that the one extra defense die actually makes that much difference though?

Kevin
 
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Will Holsclaw
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My girlfriend ran this build the other day at OP5:

Kraxon (26)
Sar (1)
Total (27)

Cardassian Keldon Class (24)
Gul Dukat (5)
Boheeka (2 overridden to 0)*
Dorsal Weapons Array (3 overridden to 0)*
Total (29)

Cardassian Keldon Class (24)
Cardassian Captain (0)
Breen Aide (2 overridden to 0)*
Dorsal Weapons Array (3 overridden to 0)*
Total (24)

Hideki Class Attack Squadron (20)

* United Force upgrades

Fleet total: 100


We did watch the video Penguin mentioned before we ran it, and it definitely made it certain we'd be running double DWAs on the Keldons, where with a teensy bit of dice modification from Boheeka and Breen Aide they can be at least a little bit effective.

She had the Bye in Round 3, so she only got to try it in two games. The first was against my Federation 2-ship (Ent-D/Excelsior) and I actually managed to edge out a slim victory. I credit my success to the fact that I'd spent the whole previous day playtesting our two builds against each other and learned that I had to be much more cowardly with my maneuvers than I usually am. (I weaved in and out of my starting area to avoid the OWPs and eventually outflanked her a little).

The biggest drawback with this is its trouble taking down a ship with lots of defense dice. Her second opponent was combining Tetryon Emissions with Cloak to make himself super slippery half the time, and the round ended up going to a roll-off (which she won).

Another thing that makes this tricky comes from the quirks of formation flying. The fighters work best when they're up front and center (since they need to be in Range 2) with the Kraxon behind and Keldons flanking. This build thrives on creeping forward 1 at a time, which means that initially the Kraxon will be bumping up against the fighters.

But I'd still say it's a terrifying swarm to face.
 
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Penguin Bonaparte
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Did she have fun? Getting a bye stinks. These Cardassians are fun but when setting down the initial placement and moves I always feel like I'm gambling the whole game. The formations are tough too. You've probably figured it out already, but if you set up with a bit under a cm between the bases you can do banks off by one number without colliding. For turns, if the outer ship does a 3, the inner needs to do a 1. For OP6 I'm thinking about angling towards DS9 with the setup and sweeping in with 4s while the fighters go straight.

Some of those ships are great. Davedujour has some good ones, includeing a cloaked warbird I think with Gul Evek and Sulu evading my 2 Vorchas for over six turns without me able to get a hit in. I think he finally shot at me just to be nice. And last weekend he took me out with the most powerful Vo ever built. Was that opponent also an Evek? If you put him on a flagship to get up to 2 agility he starts to really save a lot of damage.
 
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Jason Jackowski
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underling wrote:
PenguinBonaparte wrote:
Damn, I didn't realize that didn't work for captains! Luckily at least my previous builds have all been legal though. This'll make the 4 ship really unattractive. Would probably have to downgrade to all generic ships, or at least downgrade the Koranak. For Luaran, the discount goes to the upgrade, not her, so that won't help at all for this problem. Marking my United Force Upgrades with a *
Maybe Keldon (24) + Dukat (5) + Boheeka (2)* + DWA (3)* = 34
Keldon (24) + Luaran (2) + DWA (3-2=1)* = 27
Galor (24) + Sar (1) = 27
Fighters (20)
That would just hit 100 before the United Force. I guess that would let me put Glin Telle or somebody on the Galor with Sar, or give Dukat Captured Intelligence. Not sure how I feel about losing 3hp from this list though.
It's also worth watching this video traitorarmor posted in which he obliterated a Cardassian force with great maneuvering. You have to be really careful when flying these ships.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wehtvzQN_cI

Actually, I think a four ship build *can* work (based, of course, on your definition of "work"). :)

I played the following list in a practice game today, and didn't feel either outmaneuvered or outgunned.

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Dukat [5]

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Gul Danar [2]

Cardassian Galor class [24]
Generic captain [0]

Hideki class fighters [20]

Total [99]

I didn't play the second build, but it's simply a variant of the first to upgrade the Galor to a Kraxon, and downgrade Gul Danar to a generic captain.

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Dukat [5]

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Generic captain [0]

Kraxon [26]
Generic captain [0]

Hideki class fighters [20]

Total [99]

You could also keep the first build and upgrade one of the Keldons if you prefer its ability over the Kraxon's ability.

I certainly don't think either of the above lists will be as competitive as a good cross-factional build, but I definitely think either will be playable (especially in pure faction builds).

Kevin


I think you guys need to double-check your math
 
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Sean Moore
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csimian wrote:
underling wrote:
PenguinBonaparte wrote:
Damn, I didn't realize that didn't work for captains! Luckily at least my previous builds have all been legal though. This'll make the 4 ship really unattractive. Would probably have to downgrade to all generic ships, or at least downgrade the Koranak. For Luaran, the discount goes to the upgrade, not her, so that won't help at all for this problem. Marking my United Force Upgrades with a *
Maybe Keldon (24) + Dukat (5) + Boheeka (2)* + DWA (3)* = 34
Keldon (24) + Luaran (2) + DWA (3-2=1)* = 27
Galor (24) + Sar (1) = 27
Fighters (20)
That would just hit 100 before the United Force. I guess that would let me put Glin Telle or somebody on the Galor with Sar, or give Dukat Captured Intelligence. Not sure how I feel about losing 3hp from this list though.
It's also worth watching this video traitorarmor posted in which he obliterated a Cardassian force with great maneuvering. You have to be really careful when flying these ships.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wehtvzQN_cI

Actually, I think a four ship build *can* work (based, of course, on your definition of "work").

I played the following list in a practice game today, and didn't feel either outmaneuvered or outgunned.

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Dukat [5]

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Gul Danar [2]

Cardassian Galor class [24]
Generic captain [0]

Hideki class fighters [20]

Total [99]

I didn't play the second build, but it's simply a variant of the first to upgrade the Galor to a Kraxon, and downgrade Gul Danar to a generic captain.

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Dukat [5]

Cardassian Keldon class [26]
Generic captain [0]

Kraxon [26]
Generic captain [0]

Hideki class fighters [20]

Total [99]

You could also keep the first build and upgrade one of the Keldons if you prefer its ability over the Kraxon's ability.

I certainly don't think either of the above lists will be as competitive as a good cross-factional build, but I definitely think either will be playable (especially in pure faction builds).

Kevin


I think you guys need to double-check your math


I got 103 for both builds too.
 
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Charles Alzona
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I noticed the disparity in the math is due to the increased SP cost on the Generic Keldon. The generics cost 24 SP to play.

The first build suggestion really came in at 99 SP, if the intention was really to play the generic Keldon instead of the Koranak. The swap to the Kraxon will push the build up to 101 SP.
 
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