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Subject: Restoring face a face-down card rss

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Kaiwen Zhang
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Can you trash a face-down card or does it have to be rezzed?
 
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Lucas Townsend
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I think it has to be rezzed, otherwise how would the Runner know it was an Executive, Sysop, or Clone? Everything that relies on a specific subtype must be rezzed or revealed if specified on the card, so I'm 99% positive it has to be rezzed. Otherwise you could trash any face down card and the Runner wouldn't know if it was or not.
 
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It doesn't need to be rezzed, since the card doesn't say so, but it would presumably need to be revealed.
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Conor Hickey
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Card only states 'installed' so they could be face-down.
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Jack Keys
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Empires wrote:
I think it has to be rezzed, otherwise how would the Runner know it was an Executive, Sysop, or Clone? Everything that relies on a specific subtype must be rezzed or revealed if specified on the card, so I'm 99% positive it has to be rezzed. Otherwise you could trash any face down card and the Runner wouldn't know if it was or not.


This argument has come up in the past, but there's nothing in the rules that says something along these lines. Basically, this is saying that the Corporation could cheat because cards are hidden, and that the card should work differently to prevent the Corporation from cheating. Hidden information is really important, so you're making this card worse if you force them to reveal, and it doesn't solve the underlying problem.

Runners are able to do this too, you know. R&D accesses are hidden from the Corporation. A Runner could hit R&D normally, hit a Snare! and not reveal it, and then use something like Keyhole or Indexing before the Corporation's turn to make that Snare! disappear. How do you prevent that? You really can't, you just have to call a TO over to watch what's happening if you suspect cheating.

So, with all of that said, since this card doesn't say the Sysop, Executive, or Clone needs to be rezzed, just installed, they can use it on a face-down card. Contrast this to Security Subcontract, which explicitly says the ICE needs to be rezzed.
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Matthew Sigal
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I agree with what Jack wrote. It doesn't say trash (and expose if unrezzed), so I don't think you would need to...
 
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Kaiwen Zhang
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Empires wrote:
I think it has to be rezzed, otherwise how would the Runner know it was an Executive, Sysop, or Clone? Everything that relies on a specific subtype must be rezzed or revealed if specified on the card, so I'm 99% positive it has to be rezzed. Otherwise you could trash any face down card and the Runner wouldn't know if it was or not.


You can only have 1 region in a server even if unrezzed. If I put down two cards, how do you know it's not two regions? Holes exist in the rules already.

The ruling on restoring face matters especially for high rez cost cards like Simone, which you don't necessarily want to rez and just want to sacrifice.
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Roberta Yang
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The Region ruling provides a precedent that cards still have their subtypes even while unrezzed.
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Hannes Sörensson
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skiesbleed wrote:
Empires wrote:
I think it has to be rezzed, otherwise how would the Runner know it was an Executive, Sysop, or Clone? Everything that relies on a specific subtype must be rezzed or revealed if specified on the card, so I'm 99% positive it has to be rezzed. Otherwise you could trash any face down card and the Runner wouldn't know if it was or not.


This argument has come up in the past, but there's nothing in the rules that says something along these lines. Basically, this is saying that the Corporation could cheat because cards are hidden, and that the card should work differently to prevent the Corporation from cheating. Hidden information is really important, so you're making this card worse if you force them to reveal, and it doesn't solve the underlying problem.

Runners are able to do this too, you know. R&D accesses are hidden from the Corporation. A Runner could hit R&D normally, hit a Snare! and not reveal it, and then use something like Keyhole or Indexing before the Corporation's turn to make that Snare! disappear. How do you prevent that? You really can't, you just have to call a TO over to watch what's happening if you suspect cheating.

So, with all of that said, since this card doesn't say the Sysop, Executive, or Clone needs to be rezzed, just installed, they can use it on a face-down card. Contrast this to Security Subcontract, which explicitly says the ICE needs to be rezzed.


Just because the game has problems doesn't mean we should introduce new ones. Forcing the corp to reveal the card makes sense to me. How do you play Special Order or Djinn? To me it is obvious that the runner must reveal the searched card so that I can verify that it has the required type, even though the cards don't specifically say so.
 
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Jack Keys
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Hattes wrote:
skiesbleed wrote:
Empires wrote:
I think it has to be rezzed, otherwise how would the Runner know it was an Executive, Sysop, or Clone? Everything that relies on a specific subtype must be rezzed or revealed if specified on the card, so I'm 99% positive it has to be rezzed. Otherwise you could trash any face down card and the Runner wouldn't know if it was or not.


This argument has come up in the past, but there's nothing in the rules that says something along these lines. Basically, this is saying that the Corporation could cheat because cards are hidden, and that the card should work differently to prevent the Corporation from cheating. Hidden information is really important, so you're making this card worse if you force them to reveal, and it doesn't solve the underlying problem.

Runners are able to do this too, you know. R&D accesses are hidden from the Corporation. A Runner could hit R&D normally, hit a Snare! and not reveal it, and then use something like Keyhole or Indexing before the Corporation's turn to make that Snare! disappear. How do you prevent that? You really can't, you just have to call a TO over to watch what's happening if you suspect cheating.

So, with all of that said, since this card doesn't say the Sysop, Executive, or Clone needs to be rezzed, just installed, they can use it on a face-down card. Contrast this to Security Subcontract, which explicitly says the ICE needs to be rezzed.


Just because the game has problems doesn't mean we should introduce new ones. Forcing the corp to reveal the card makes sense to me. How do you play Special Order or Djinn? To me it is obvious that the runner must reveal the searched card so that I can verify that it has the required type, even though the cards don't specifically say so.


Both Special Order and Djinn do specifically say that the card must be revealed. This isn't just to validate the type of the card, though, it's part of how that card was designed. For example, Project Atlas can take any kind of card, but it still must be revealed. In contrast, Aggressive Negotiations does not require that you reveal the card that you searched for. These effects have a mechanical difference, it's not just to prevent cheating.

If someone plays Restoring Face on a face-down card, just get a third party or the TO to validate that they trashed the correct type of card if you suspect cheating. It's not difficult to do, and I don't think it's going to be an issue in most cases.
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Death Dragon
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The rulebook says:
"Active: A state in which a card’s effects
and abilities are able to be used and affect
the game."
"Inactive: A state in which a card’s
effects and abilities are ignored."

The question is if "effects and abilities" includes subtypes or not.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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You'll have to forgive the lack of link (on phone, will try and remember to add it later) but someone on cardgamedb asked Lukas already, who confirmed you do NOT have to reveal the card you trashed if it was face down.
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L S
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CommissarFeesh wrote:
You'll have to forgive the lack of link (on phone, will try and remember to add it later) but someone on cardgamedb asked Lukas already, who confirmed you do NOT have to reveal the card you trashed if it was face down.


Here's the link:

http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/index.php?/topic/3269-offic...
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Kaiwen Zhang
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the ruling on face-down subliminal messaging is interesting as well. right now I would just reveal it since it's the only card with that effect, but in the future if similar cards are released, the corp does not have to say which cards are being retrieved, nor which condition was satisfied to allow the retrieval.
 
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Kevin Jones
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I understand why the trashed card doesn't have to be revealed if it wasn't rezed, but I say if it's challenged, the corp should at least have to reveal the line that says they have an executive, sysop or clone and was indeed the card just trashed. Otherwise, let's just try to have faith in the other player and not make things unnecessarily difficult and antagonistic.
 
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Gregory Pettigrew
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Rognik wrote:
I understand why the trashed card doesn't have to be revealed if it wasn't rezed, but I say if it's challenged, the corp should at least have to reveal the line that says they have an executive, sysop or clone and was indeed the card just trashed. Otherwise, let's just try to have faith in the other player and not make things unnecessarily difficult and antagonistic.


If there is any doubt, you can show it to the TO or a neutral third party.
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