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Subject: Which is better? rss

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Nick Meenachan
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There are two starter packs available at CSI right now:

Scout vs. Grenadier

Sharpshooter vs. Bruiser

If anyone else has played the game, which do you advise getting first?
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Tiffany Leigh
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TheKillShirt wrote:
There are two starter packs available at CSI right now:

Scout vs. Grenadier

Sharpshooter vs. Bruiser

If anyone else has played the game, which do you advise getting first?

I bought both sets last week and was able to play one game with each set.

To answer your question, it may depend on personal taste, or your style of play.

The Scout deck is fast, light, and close-range. The Grenadier deck is slow and has tons of heavy weaponry. These two decks are the most unique of the four, and they play at opposite extremes.

Sharpshooter and Bruiser are both considered "Medium" decks on the spectrum. So they are a lot more similar in style, though they do have "different" types of weapons and tactics.

I've played one game with each starter set. So I was the Scout against the Grenadier, and then was the Bruiser against the Sharpshooter.

The Scout deck lives in close range and usually wins the speed battles, such that in our game I moved the range to "close" and the heavy immobile Grenadier did nothing to try to win speed, so each round I got the "Outflank" 2 damage. The heavier mech didn't use his walk cards at all once we realized his winning a speed battle would never happen, so he used them entirely for cover.

When the Grenadier did hit me it usually was for massive amounts of damage. One turn I took 19 cards damage from him. After that my strategy made more sense: quick cardplay and hitting "Fire" faster and sooner with less cards in front of me, to prevent the Grenadier from in effect building massive damage engines with his cards. Even if that meant that I didn't draw much firepower or virtually anything "useful."

I also kept in mind the overheating. The Grenadier was much more prone to overheat in our game. The Scout had TOW missiles which generated 3 heat each, so I had to keep that in mind. For my game I didn't overheat for too much damage. It can be a "go for broke" strategy if you are close and are sure it's your "hail mary" last ditch push to win the game. My friend's 19 pt damage turn sent him to the highest heat damage zone. There are cards (Coolant) that knock this down in his deck, which helped him recover. But he still was taking more overheat damage than I was.

The Bruiser vs. Sharpshooter decks felt more similar, because each deck is considered "medium." So it was not a pronounced rift in styles of play like the ultra fast Scout versus the massive heavy weapons of the Grenadier. In fact, playing with the Bruiser deck, my game felt less memorable regarding what I played and how. I did lose, and not by much, so the decks felt evenly balanced with one exception (see below*).

Small sample size, but I will say this game was very well balanced. I won as the Scout, but it was after I was down to no cards, where my next call to reshuffle would have cost me the game. I lost as the Bruiser, but my friend was one turn away from losing when I lost.

I'd say the Scout/Grenadier deck felt slightly more "asymmetrical," at least in how each deck must be played. The Bruiser/Sharpshooter set have different types of cards in them, but didn't feel like they were as vastly different philosophies.

If you can only get one set for now, and if you and your opponent like asymmetrical play (Netrunner, say), I'd get the Scout set. The other one is more "middle of the road" though, so might even work as a casual or gateway gamer's filler. Since the decks play more "evenly" (again, I just mean in feel, not literally since all four decks felt like they could win).

*P.S. - We both agreed that in the early plays of this, that the "Camouflage" card felt very overpowered. [It adds +2 to each cover card you have in front of you]. Again, this is early on and strategies are still emerging, so grain of salt. But the Camouflage card just creates such a huge cover advantage whenever it appears, and it did cost me the game when I played with the Bruiser deck.

P.P.S. - We looked at the custom deckbuilding rules, and at first glance there seemed to be a lot of restrictions around constructing the decks. So much so that I don't know how much customization is truly possible. There are many duplicates in one's deck already with weapons and walk cards. These decks don't and can't adhere to the more standard Magic/Netrunner styles of customization. And there are not that many cards to begin with. So don't buy this expecting to be constructing super personalized decks. That might change, but at this point it's more an "out of the box" experience.

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Juan Bottom
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Mine just arrived in the mail today. The game got good reviews, and each of those sets are only $10, so I just looked at it as a $20 game and bought both.

Amirite you guys?
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Travis Bryant
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And if you play the PC game, the $5 credit makes it come out to five dollars per box. Great deal :-)
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Nick Meenachan
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tensider wrote:
And if you play the PC game, the $5 credit makes it come out to five dollars per box. Great deal :-)


Whoa, how does that work?
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Nick Meenachan
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@Cliff: Thanks for the breakdown! I was leaning toward the Scout/Grenadier anyways, so I might get that as an initial purchase. I also appreciate the fact that it's good right out of the box. Some games I don't mind doing a little deck-building, but for games like this I'd rather just pop it open and play.
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Travis Bryant
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TheKillShirt wrote:
tensider wrote:
And if you play the PC game, the $5 credit makes it come out to five dollars per box. Great deal :-)


Whoa, how does that work?


There is a voucher in the box for $5 worth of currency in the Hawken PC game.
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Frederic Bush
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TheKillShirt wrote:
@Cliff: Thanks for the breakdown! I was leaning toward the Scout/Grenadier anyways, so I might get that as an initial purchase. I also appreciate the fact that it's good right out of the box. Some games I don't mind doing a little deck-building, but for games like this I'd rather just pop it open and play.


We played a few demo games and we think Scout/Grenadier is unbalanced in favor of the Scout. The Scout's got a big speed edge and its weapons are much more efficient.
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Frederic Bush
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MikeyD wrote:
fbush555 wrote:
[q="TheKillShirt"]We played a few demo games and we think Scout/Grenadier is unbalanced in favor of the Scout. The Scout's got a big speed edge and its weapons are much more efficient.


So far they are pretty well balanced over here. The Flak Cannon is great and all, but the Scout player can easily get a false sense of security thinking it is automatically win the Speed battle. Then the Grenadier wins 1 or 2 and the Flak Cannons suuuuck.


As soon as the Scout saw a TOW or a Thrusters he would just call Fire. It's hard for the Grenadier to generate 3 move to mitigate the TOW, and if Scout has Thrusters Grenadier is basically never going to win the speed check.

There's nothing comparable for the Grenadier that you can instacall Fire.
 
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Matt Hyra
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fbush555 wrote:
As soon as the Scout saw a TOW or a Thrusters he would just call Fire. It's hard for the Grenadier to generate 3 move to mitigate the TOW, and if Scout has Thrusters Grenadier is basically never going to win the speed check.

There's nothing comparable for the Grenadier that you can instacall Fire.


A rules note in case any brand new players are reading...
A player can't call FIRE before playing 3 cards.

Calling FIRE still allows your opponent the chance to play their 3rd card, if they have not done so already.

This is a fun debate!

Thanks,
Matt Hyra
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Frederic Bush
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Matt Hyra wrote:
fbush555 wrote:
As soon as the Scout saw a TOW or a Thrusters he would just call Fire. It's hard for the Grenadier to generate 3 move to mitigate the TOW, and if Scout has Thrusters Grenadier is basically never going to win the speed check.

There's nothing comparable for the Grenadier that you can instacall Fire.


A rules note in case any brand new players are reading...
A player can't call FIRE before playing 3 cards.

Calling FIRE still allows your opponent the chance to play their 3rd card, if they have not done so already.

This is a fun debate!

Thanks,
Matt Hyra
Cryptozoic R&D


Thanks for the clarification -- I meant call Fire as soon as you have at least 3 cards that included a Thrusters or TOW, otherwise keep drawing.

How about this hypothetical but legal deck + plan -- light mech, 20x Thrusters, 15x Flak Cannon, 5x TOW Rocket. Your plan is to flip 3 cards and call Fire. If you draw more than one Thrusters, the other ones become cover, otherwise everything gets played.

Alternate battle plan: if you are at less than 5 heat once you've drawn 3 cards, keep drawing until you hit 5 heat or more, then call Fire.

Either way, all of those cards are much more efficient than everything else I've seen. I haven't seen the other box's secondaries so one of them might be worth swapping in for the TOW rocket, but I doubt it.
 
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Frederic Bush
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MikeyD wrote:
fbush555 wrote:

How about this hypothetical but legal deck + plan -- light mech, 20x Thrusters, 15x Flak Cannon, 5x TOW Rocket.

Alternate battle plan: if you are at less than 5 heat once you've drawn 3 cards, keep drawing until you hit 5 heat or more, then call Fire.

Either way, all of those cards are much more efficient than everything else I've seen. I haven't seen the other box's secondaries so one of them might be worth swapping in for the TOW rocket, but I doubt it.


Sound pretty fun. However, if you are getting into the realm of Constructed Decks, your opponent is probably not going to be playing a Heavy, in which case your 20 Thrusters are just OK.

It would be funny if you played 3-4 Thrusters face down along with some weapons, then got hit by an EMP. Good chance of hitting 10+ heat.

The Alt plan also seems good, too.


I think EMP results in only 4 cards in play and costing heat, right? Unlikely you'll get to 10 that way.

The 20 Thrusters are in there because you can only put in 20 weapons, so you need to fill the deck out, and you (or your opponent!) can make most non-weapon cards worthless/equivalent to Cover by flipping 3 and then calling fire. Armor? You're not firing enough weapons at a time. Walk? Bringing a walk to a Thrusters fight is a waste of a card. Aim? Nope. The first Thrusters you play is never worthless.

Some of the special cards may be playable (I haven't seen them all), but there are at most 2-offs in your deck, so I doubt they're going to make a big difference.
 
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Brian Kumanchik
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So, I assume that when you take heat damage you also remove cards accordingly - right? I couldn't find it mentioned anywhere in the manual.

Thanks
 
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Matt Hyra
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Yes, all damage is taken from your deck.

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Matt Hyra
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Brian Kumanchik
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Thanks you so much for the reply and a great game as well

Brian
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