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Subject: No true Scotsman: The thread rss

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Erik Twice
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I thought this could be a good way to roll a conversation. Here's a question about the Christianity and the Crusades that isn't actually about those topics, but about perceptions:

Poll
The Crusaders
Were Christians and didn't act in an unchristian way
Were Christians but acted in an unchristian way
Were not Christians, as they acted in an unchristian way
      76 answers
Poll created by General_Norris
 
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General_Norris wrote:
I thought this could be a good way to roll a conversation. Here's a question about the Christianity and the Crusades that isn't actually about those topics, but about perceptions:

Poll
The Crusaders
Were Christians and didn't act in an unchristian way
Were Christians but acted in an unchristian way
Were not Christians, as they acted in an unchristian way
      76 answers
Poll created by General_Norris


This isn't a real "No True Scotsman" thread.
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Josh
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How about 'were a diverse group doing a lot of different things for a lot ofdifferent reasons?'
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Boaty McBoatface
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Yes, but only to the extent that they believed they were doing gods work (like most Christians who want to act like wankers do), and that what they were doping was based upon the word of god (like most Christians who want to act like wankers do).

This is why we should never allow "well god told me to do it" as a defense.
 
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Just another boring example of out-group homogeneity bias. They're all the same, but me, I'm different and so are my friends.

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Shawn Fox
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The Bible is full of stories of Christians killing, raping, salting the earth, and turning people into slaves. How is it that the Crusades do not fit very well into the Christian model? Unless you are one of those fake Christians who ignore all the parts of the Bible you don't agree with, but then you aren't a true Christian anyway.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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sfox wrote:
The Bible is full of stories of Christians killing, raping, salting the earth, and turning people into slaves. How is it that the Crusades do not fit very well into the Christian model? Unless you are one of those fake Christians who ignore all the parts of the Bible you don't agree with, but then you aren't a true Christian anyway.
Errr, those were Jews.
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Moshe Callen
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slatersteven wrote:
sfox wrote:
The Bible is full of stories of Christians killing, raping, salting the earth, and turning people into slaves. How is it that the Crusades do not fit very well into the Christian model? Unless you are one of those fake Christians who ignore all the parts of the Bible you don't agree with, but then you aren't a true Christian anyway.
Errr, those were Jews.

As depicted by Christians.
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Boaty McBoatface
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
sfox wrote:
The Bible is full of stories of Christians killing, raping, salting the earth, and turning people into slaves. How is it that the Crusades do not fit very well into the Christian model? Unless you are one of those fake Christians who ignore all the parts of the Bible you don't agree with, but then you aren't a true Christian anyway.
Errr, those were Jews.

As depicted by Christians.
Not sure that is wholly true, are you saying that the Jewish text does not describe this kind of action?
 
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slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
sfox wrote:
The Bible is full of stories of Christians killing, raping, salting the earth, and turning people into slaves. How is it that the Crusades do not fit very well into the Christian model? Unless you are one of those fake Christians who ignore all the parts of the Bible you don't agree with, but then you aren't a true Christian anyway.
Errr, those were Jews.

As depicted by Christians.
Not sure that is wholly true, are you saying that the Jewish text does not describe this kind of action?

I'm just saying that the Old Testament is not a Jewish book-- no more and no less.
 
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As for the Crusaders, what it meant to be a "good Christian" in 1000 is not the same as that phrase means to most Christians now.
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
sfox wrote:
The Bible is full of stories of Christians killing, raping, salting the earth, and turning people into slaves. How is it that the Crusades do not fit very well into the Christian model? Unless you are one of those fake Christians who ignore all the parts of the Bible you don't agree with, but then you aren't a true Christian anyway.
Errr, those were Jews.

As depicted by Christians.
Not sure that is wholly true, are you saying that the Jewish text does not describe this kind of action?

I'm just saying that the Old Testament is not a Jewish book-- no more and no less.
Ahh!
 
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whac3 wrote:
As for the Crusaders, what it meant to be a "good Christian" in 1000 is not the same as that phrase means to most Christians now.


This, not to mention regional and parish differences as well.
 
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
sfox wrote:
The Bible is full of stories of Christians killing, raping, salting the earth, and turning people into slaves. How is it that the Crusades do not fit very well into the Christian model? Unless you are one of those fake Christians who ignore all the parts of the Bible you don't agree with, but then you aren't a true Christian anyway.
Errr, those were Jews.

As depicted by Christians.
Not sure that is wholly true, are you saying that the Jewish text does not describe this kind of action?

I'm just saying that the Old Testament is not a Jewish book-- no more and no less.


The Old Testament is clearly a Christian book, and most Christians follow large parts of the Old Testament. They read from it, they discuss it, and they follow many of the rules. Which parts do they follow? Well, that depends on the Christian. Then you have the Mormons who found a more up to date version, but most Christians ignore the Book of Mormon even though they have no more proof that it is false than they do that the New/Old Testament is true.

Basically all I'm saying is that Christians just make up the rules as they go along, picking which parts of the Bible to follow, and often making up things that aren't in any of the texts at all. I think most Christians try to be good people, but that doesn't change the fact that most of them also choose to interpret their holy book in whatever way they want so that they can justify their own opinion of what is right and wrong.
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Moshe Callen
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sfox wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
sfox wrote:
The Bible is full of stories of Christians killing, raping, salting the earth, and turning people into slaves. How is it that the Crusades do not fit very well into the Christian model? Unless you are one of those fake Christians who ignore all the parts of the Bible you don't agree with, but then you aren't a true Christian anyway.
Errr, those were Jews.

As depicted by Christians.
Not sure that is wholly true, are you saying that the Jewish text does not describe this kind of action?

I'm just saying that the Old Testament is not a Jewish book-- no more and no less.


The Old Testament is clearly a Christian book, and most Christians follow large parts of the Old Testament. They read from it, they discuss it, and they follow many of the rules. Which parts do they follow? Well, that depends on the Christian. Then you have the Mormons who found a more up to date version, but most Christians ignore the Book of Mormon even though they have no more proof that it is false than they do that the New/Old Testament is true.

Basically all I'm saying is that Christians just make up the rules as they go along, picking which parts of the Bible to follow, and often making up things that aren't in any of the texts at all. I think most Christians try to be good people, but that doesn't change the fact that most of them also choose to interpret their holy book in whatever way they want so that they can justify their own opinion of what is right and wrong.
I basically agree with you. I feel like there's a "but..." coming though.
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I feel perfectly comfortable in saying that some of the Crusaders were Christians. God saves terrible people, after all. I also think that the Crusades were a long series of events in a large and very complex historical and cultural context, and that reducing them solely to "Christians doing bad things" is a terrible misrepresentation. Did the church make mistakes? Absolutely- but that wasn't the beginning or the end of the story.
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There's a book I no longer have which described an incident which pretty much encapsulates the Jewish perspective of the Crusades. I don't recall which two cities were involved, but lets say it was Akko (Acre) and Ashkelon.

Anyway, the Muslims hadn't been treating the Jews here very nicely and so when the Muslims of Akko fled the city, leaving all the Jews behind, the Jews opened up the city gates to the Christian armies, hailing them as liberators. The Christian army, intent on a fight, massacred every man, woman and child of the Jews in the city.

A few weeks later, in Ashekalon (we're supposing as I don't recall the actual city), the Muslims again fled but wouldn't let the Jews come with them. Knowing their fate if the Christian army took the city, the Jews fought desperately and fought off the Christians. Then the Muslims came back and killed every man, woman and child of the Jews of the city.

Anyone claiming the evil of the Crusades was only from the Christians doesn't know their history.
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twomillionbucks wrote:
God saves terrible people, after all.


I don't agree with this statement.
 
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ejmowrer wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
God saves terrible people, after all.


I don't agree with this statement.


Why do you disagree?
 
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twomillionbucks wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
God saves terrible people, after all.


I don't agree with this statement.


Why do you disagree?


I'm not going to argue it further than this post here, because I think that would be fruitless, but I will clarify what I'm saying. I think it's clear in the New Testament that he saves people who repent and have faith, both of which require action. He doesn't save terrible people, but rather saves good people who have repented of terrible deeds. Accepting Jesus Christ as one's savior does not include continuing to do terrible acts.

Furthermore, this modern overemphasis of grace (and ignoring the many commandments and calls to action as optional) is the very reason Christians can be such horrible people these days. "Once saved, always saved", is, in short, complete bologna in my opinion.
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ejmowrer wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
God saves terrible people, after all.


I don't agree with this statement.


Why do you disagree?


I'm not going to argue it further than this post here, because I think that would be fruitless, but I will clarify what I'm saying. I think it's clear in the New Testament that he saves people who repent and have faith, both of which require action. He doesn't save terrible people, but rather saves good people who have repented of terrible deeds. Accepting Jesus Christ as one's savior does not include continuing to do terrible acts.

Furthermore, this modern overemphasis of grace (and ignoring the many commandments and calls to action as optional) is the very reason Christians can be such horrible people these days. "Once saved, always saved", is, in short, complete bologna in my opinion.


We may not disagree over more than terminology. I'll state that yes, God does not leave those he's saved in unrepentant sin, and leave it at that.
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twomillionbucks wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
ejmowrer wrote:
twomillionbucks wrote:
God saves terrible people, after all.


I don't agree with this statement.


Why do you disagree?


I'm not going to argue it further than this post here, because I think that would be fruitless, but I will clarify what I'm saying. I think it's clear in the New Testament that he saves people who repent and have faith, both of which require action. He doesn't save terrible people, but rather saves good people who have repented of terrible deeds. Accepting Jesus Christ as one's savior does not include continuing to do terrible acts.

Furthermore, this modern overemphasis of grace (and ignoring the many commandments and calls to action as optional) is the very reason Christians can be such horrible people these days. "Once saved, always saved", is, in short, complete bologna in my opinion.


We may not disagree over more than terminology. I'll state that yes, God does not leave those he's saved in unrepentant sin, and leave it at that.


Careful, or you're going to get Chad all excited.
 
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whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
sfox wrote:
The Bible is full of stories of Christians killing, raping, salting the earth, and turning people into slaves. How is it that the Crusades do not fit very well into the Christian model? Unless you are one of those fake Christians who ignore all the parts of the Bible you don't agree with, but then you aren't a true Christian anyway.
Errr, those were Jews.

As depicted by Christians.
Not sure that is wholly true, are you saying that the Jewish text does not describe this kind of action?

I'm just saying that the Old Testament is not a Jewish book-- no more and no less.


Okay, but in what ways do the events mentioned above differ in the Torah? Does it not show one tribe or set of tribes fighting with another set of tribes in bronze-age fashion? I can understand the details and presentation differing, but I've never heard of the actual underlying substance differing substantially.
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It would be nice to be able to pin down the Crusades to a single reason, but of course, history is rarely that simple. That being said, however, a misplaced emphasis on the location of the "Holy Sepulchre", or the location of Christ's tomb, would seem likely to have played a great role in motivating many of those who participated in the Crusades, so it may be as close to a singular reason than anything else. The New Testament, of course, does not suggest that any such emphasis was to be placed on Jesus' tomb(he was only there for 3 days, after all), so those Christians who may have chosen not to put their faith in the ideas of men at that time may have remained more blameless than their compatriots.

Reminds me of a couple quotes I came across not too long ago, from Palingenius' Aquarius:

"Where reason is away,
No faith nor credit must we give,
To words that men do say."


and,

"For famous men do oftentimes make great and famous lies,
And often men do miss the truth though they ever be so wise."


He was talking about teachings on astronomy, but the principle perhaps holds true?
 
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JasonJ0 wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
whac3 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
sfox wrote:
The Bible is full of stories of Christians killing, raping, salting the earth, and turning people into slaves. How is it that the Crusades do not fit very well into the Christian model? Unless you are one of those fake Christians who ignore all the parts of the Bible you don't agree with, but then you aren't a true Christian anyway.
Errr, those were Jews.

As depicted by Christians.
Not sure that is wholly true, are you saying that the Jewish text does not describe this kind of action?

I'm just saying that the Old Testament is not a Jewish book-- no more and no less.


Okay, but in what ways do the events mentioned above differ in the Torah? Does it not show one tribe or set of tribes fighting with another set of tribes in bronze-age fashion? I can understand the details and presentation differing, but I've never heard of the actual underlying substance differing substantially.

My experience is that it's as if we're reading completely different books.
 
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