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Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Strategy

Subject: OP combos and removing them. rss

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Nathan Reukauf
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As the OP events in my area end today I thought I would share a few observations on overpowered combos that have popped up.

After a very tough OP event where nasty combos where everywhere the organizer and I sat down and discussed the future of the tournament. We didn't like the direction it was headed and it became clear that a vast amount of problems were arising from the resource cards. Them interacting in ways that were not expected caused many nasty/broken combos that gave significant disadvantages to players not having that resource. As such we initiated a rule that only that months resource could be used. It's worked quite well with few power builds being used and those not being as effective.

Looking back through these forums and seeing the lists I think that the decision to limit resources was a good one. Many of the power game lists revolve around a single resource and the idea of keeping one use cards. Flagship. I do love the idea of it but I feel that either the card needs a point increase or another modification to bring it in line. As such I would like to propose the following two "rules" to make things more enjoyable and better balanced.

"A resource can't add an upgrade to a ship that it doesn't have."

Basically, you can't use flagship to give a ship a tech slot/weapon slot/eliteskill, if it doesn't have access to one already. Though I would say that adding an action, like Battlestations is fine.

2nd: "You may not prevent/stop your own discard, and still gain the effect."

Basically if you have a card that says "Discard to gain X effect" Then you must discard that card and can't use another card to cancel that discard. Example, Weyoun, Conditional surrender and dude. CS says to discard your crew. Weyoun disables to cancel the discard. However with this 'rule' that would no longer work as it would be preventing your own discard.

I think that those two "rules" hit at the heart of the ways that upgrades were not intended to interact. What do you think? What ways would you start to limit the "broken" (or at least unfun) combos to play against?
 
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Scott Kelly
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In my experience, all of the players SHOULD be able to get the resources. Depending on the size of the venue, the organizer should have leftovers. If not, then there are usually a couple players such as myself who typically go to 2-3 OPs per month, which means we have multiple copies of each resource. Add in my wife, and I usually have 4-6 of each resource. I myself freely give out the spares to new players or players who may miss a month. Even if that isn't the case at your venue, all of the resources can typically be acquired for $5-10/shipped on eBay, which in no way limits someone's ability to get them.

I think that there is no broken combo in the game. There are tough combos but nothing broken. Any of them can be beat, including the Weyoun/Conditional Surrender one, Klingon BoF rolling 12 dice with rerolls and N'Garen/Drex, etc. It's just a matter of incorporating it into a build.

If it wasn't Weyoun/Conditional Surrender, it would be BoF builds. If it wasn't BoF, it'd be something else. There will always be one or two items in any game that are difficult, but if they weren't there people would complain about the next thing.
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Tournament play is always going to be this way for any customizable card game involving non-symetrical decks being played against each other.

For a great examples of this have a look at the have Jace the Mind Sculptor and Stone Forge Mystic days of MTG tournament play.


That being said this game isn't just about cards.

If two players are just flying straight at each other on the edge of the table (limiting movement completely for one direction as a result) then it is no surprise the "dreadnaught" throwing more attack dice first has a better chance.

A simple rule would be to have deployment zones that are not allowed within a certain distance of the left and right sides of the field.

Nobody wants to get shot up by obstacles in the middle so it is no surprise that people deploy there.


I think with all the range one area of effect buffs the torpedos should have had an area of effect range which would make people scatter their ships or at least think about doing it. Missed opportunity there design wise.

Mine fields are great though.



If I were playing in a tournament where that DS9 could be won I would be right along those guys throwing 12 dice.... Fun casual play? Nope, all thematic there.

Blame WizKids for making the prizes so desireable.


Just my 2 cents.
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Nathan Reukauf
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You may notice that I said more ENJOYABLE, not balanced. Every fleet bearing identical combos is balanced but I personally find it tiring when every fleet is packing either a certain combo or is built to hard counter those lists. You may notice that I listed Weyoun as a simple example since it is the most recent trend despite the fact that it's been around a while. For me I refer to a overpowered/broken combo as a specific combo that you MUST have a counter for in mind when you build your lists.

The resource limitations went in at our OP when 8 of 10 players had nearly identical lists. Since then there has been a lot more variety. It dropped back down to mostly Fed's when Admiral orders came out, but when the revised came out the variety came back.

And while everyone has access to every resource and card, seeing the same fleet on the table in every match is certainly an indication of an overpowered/broken combo in the game. Is it Balanced? Sure. Everyone with the same fleet is balanced, but this isn't about balanced, it's about having FUN.
 
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Will Sanchez
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Just ban the cards you hate. Weyoun too strong? ban him. That's what we did with Cloaked Mines. If your people are all running the same fleet, that's their fault, not the game's. You're going to have people that copy builds regardless of what you do. I haven't seen an identical fleet around here in a long time.
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Banning certain cards is an option as well.

For faction pure fleets don't ban but for combination fleets do so.



Just give people a heads up before doing so to avoid issue, like a posted ban list.



I really do think things will change when terrain doesn't fight back and movement & firing arcs become a factor again instead of jousting down a corridor.
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Nova Cat
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OP: Your rules mean that people running the infamous "dreadnought" build will simply have to use Gul Dukat instead of Weyoun, and that Weyoun has become literally worthless, since his entire purpose was to allow Jem'Hadar to get their effects without losing them.

Instead, consider this as a fix: Just ban Conditional Surrender.
 
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SaintofVirtue wrote:


Basically if you have a card that says "Discard to gain X effect" Then you must discard that card and can't use another card to cancel that discard. Example, Weyoun, Conditional surrender and dude. CS says to discard your crew. Weyoun disables to cancel the discard. However with this 'rule' that would no longer work as it would be preventing your own discard.


If you do this don't expect to see Weyoun 6 used, as most of the reason to take him is reuse of an "on use discard" crew effect.
I believe right now there are two main "cancel attack" combos with Weyoun 6

1. Weyoun 6 and Varel at a cost of 15/16 on any ship other then a Rom sci vessel.

2. Flagship that gives you a talent, Weyoun 6, Conditional surrender , any crew, add Shrouds if you want. Min cost 10+4+4=18+crew

Like other meta options you have to look at ways for your fleet to fight them and realize you might see them at an OP. Just like when I make a fleet for an OP I have to look at how it will deal with a BoF or an Fed 2 ship fleet, I will now have to look at how I will deal with this combo.

Off the top of my head I'm guessing we may now see more people running starter O'Brien, Chang, or Toman'Torax to break the combo, or things like Ferengi EM pulse or Positron beam to add an Aux to the stop to stop it from clearing the disable from Weyoun 6.

I will say that stacking Weyoun 6, Conditional surrender, and as many shrouds as you can is a nasty combo, but just like any high cost combo you're giving up alot of points for it.





 
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Scott Kelly
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I personally think any of it should be a shopwide/community decision, not unilateral. If you really want to encourage and not force things, award the Fellowship prize ship to the most unique build.

Whenever this stuff happens in other games, typically the community figures out a build to blast the combo out of the water, and it cycles back. Games shouldn't always resort to bannings because of the magnitude with which something gets played or its power.
 
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Scott Kelly
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If everyone at my OPs were playing pretty much the same build, I would be thrilled at my prospects of winning. Everything in this game can be countered by the right build, so I'd just run that.
 
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Nathan Reukauf
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I do believe I mentioned that our OP is over. This has nothing to do with competitive play anymore or preparing for the event. This has to do with using ALL the resources and such outside of the event in a more balanced setting.


"
OP: Your rules mean that people running the infamous "dreadnought" build will simply have to use Gul Dukat instead of Weyoun, and that Weyoun has become literally worthless, since his entire purpose was to allow Jem'Hadar to get their effects without losing them."

Indeed the surrender still works but now it's only a 1 use only regardless of who is at the helm.
Weyoun 6 not used as intended? I ask you how many points he is. 4? He's a skill 6 captain as well, average point cost for that level. I always saw him as a captain designed to prevent assassination cards. At 4 points that seems reasonable. Compared with other 4 point captains being able to reuse 5 point cards for an action seems incredibly powerful as opposed to for example, re-rolling a single die.



"2. Flagship that gives you a talent, Weyoun 6, Conditional surrender , any crew, add Shrouds if you want. Min cost 10+4+4=18+crew"

Min cost is 19, true. But you're getting much more than this combo. You get the flagship bonus, whatever the crew gives and a Skill 6 captain. All of which are worth taking on their own.
 
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Xander Fulton
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Novacat wrote:
OP: Your rules mean that people running the infamous "dreadnought" build will simply have to use Gul Dukat instead of Weyoun, and that Weyoun has become literally worthless, since his entire purpose was to allow Jem'Hadar to get their effects without losing them.

Instead, consider this as a fix: Just ban Conditional Surrender.


A more reasonable fix would be to 'fix' Conditional Surrender. As 'shroud' does the same thing for 1/4 the cost...but it's a discard...I could see a re-usable version requiring a 'disable' to use.

So just house-rule that in. "Conditional Surrender" requires a disable to use. Still very effective, but it also means that Weyoun can't just us it EVERY turn - he has to re-enable himself AND re-enable conditional surrender to use it, again...and that's two turns he isn't taking any other actions.

That'd balance it pretty well for the cost, IMHO.

As to the flagship cards...I sort of thing I like the 'can't add a slot the ship doesn't already have at least one of - only adds extras to existing capabilities' modification. I think that'd tone down the worst of the flagship excesses...although it's still a problematic resource. Some flagships just seem a lot better than others. (The Federation one that lets you re-roll all your Fed defense dice?! ROFL - most Fed ships only HAVE the one defense dice! The Romulan flagship, in contrast, is *brutal*...re-roll ATTACK dice for friendlies, *and* get a free sensor echo?? Put Synon on a Romulan ship with a high skill captain, and *good luck* ever getting them in arc...)
 
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Sean Vess
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Simple fix: Put Conditional Surrender to Ferengi only crew, Make weyoun-6 into shroud ie only for dominion crew, and make BoF only work on klingon ships..

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Dr Vulcan
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I think that now there really are enough expansions out that playing with a'pure ship' faction restriction if not 'pure fleet faction' (perhaps exception for minor factions such as ferengi in the pure fleet option) makes a lot of sense.

I think that as the game expands in the future, there will come a time that OP events will need to limit games to one of those two options to make it playable without too many silly combos.

I was against this before, however I think that now we really are at a point where it makes sense for games after OP6.

I think that the games are overall more fun that way as well, as it seems the game is really built for that.
 
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John Carpenter
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Is not the truly simple fix simply to retire Flagship cards at the end of Month 6?

Don't let the resources carry over into Tholian and Gorn, the killer combo flagship problem is solved without banning or restricting basegame cards.
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Crazy Fella
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I think your best bet in any organized gathering is going to be to do away with resources altogether. If you don't want people abusing them or newer players who don't have them going against players that do, then don't allow them plain and simple.

The frustration there will be with the federation and hideki fighters. Kind of stinks to just get them and not be able to use them.

But that's what you have to do. Either you make them available for everyone or disallow them at your organized play nights. There's really no middle ground fix in this.

Just like the OP events, the longer Wizkids keeps making exclusive resources and prizes available the longer this is going to be a problem.
 
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Stanton Lackey
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OmegaDolphin wrote:

But that's what you have to do. Either you make them available for everyone or disallow them at your organized play nights. There's really no middle ground fix in this.


Thats not true at all.... Nothing is wrong with them and to be honest you will still have a "dreadnaught" with two shrouds, Dukat, and Conditional Surrender. I don't understand why everyone is so against just making games and OP play faction pure. Do you see what you all are doing now? You're going to such lengths that you are altering and banning certain cards rather than just keeping everything playable and faction pure. The answer is so simple yet no one wants to hear it.
 
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Crazy Fella
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maverick2909 wrote:
OmegaDolphin wrote:

But that's what you have to do. Either you make them available for everyone or disallow them at your organized play nights. There's really no middle ground fix in this.


Thats not true at all.... Nothing is wrong with them and to be honest you will still have a "dreadnaught" with two shrouds, Dukat, and Conditional Surrender. I don't understand why everyone is so against just making games and OP play faction pure. Do you see what you all are doing now? You're going to such lengths that you are altering and banning certain cards rather than just keeping everything playable and faction pure. The answer is so simple yet no one wants to hear it.


I feel like you took the entire context out of my counter-point.

For OP you cannot change anything. What's been made available is available, wiz kids has exclusive prizes and players have to be allowed to bring their best fleets, regardless of whether they are faction pure or not, to win those prizes. That's fair and allowable and that's the corner that Wizkids has backed themselves into as long as they offer exclusive prizes and resources.

The original poster is lamenting that now his OP events are done, and players are using resources in casual games, hinting that they are using them against players who don't have access to them for whatever reason. I'm suggesting that to remedy that you either find ways to get all the resources out to all the players, or you disallow them at your casual play nights. Ban resources, not cards.

You also just have to hope that in casual play players will make builds more to have fun and to experiment than to play simply trying to crush other players.
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Once we start getting 1 and 2 ship factions starting in the next wave, 'just run pure factions' isn't a good answer anymore. Forcing people to but 3-4 or the single 8472 or Kazon ship to play in an OP is just ridiculous. Leave pure and thamatic play for mission night.

The big thing is, people need to adapt rather than complain. Cards exist in this game to counter everything, yet people complain when the fleet they have been running no longer works versus the fleet of the week. Modify, change; I haven't ran the same fleet yet at an OP. I always change up what I'm working on to stay ahead of the curve.

Weyoun/Conditional surrender is no worse than Weyoun/Varel and I haven't seen that fleet have much success. New combos mess with what people want to do and they just want to pout and rave about faction pure and brokenness rather than put together solutions that already exist. Just as 3 ship Klingons, cloaked mines, and barrage of fire before it, nothing is broken or unbeatable in this game and again counters exist.

At the end of the day, superior positioning and planning wins most games. If your opponent has more firepower than you, facing them head on is a bad idea. If your opponent has a highly defensive ship, kill the other one first. In the case of Weyoun, he's giving up offensive power for that defense, so just keep pounding on him and he'll fall after enough concentrated fire; he can only himself cancel 1 attack per turn.
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Dan Knight
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All the major OP combos come from mixing factions on a ship.

Please follow these simple steps to avoid this:

- Get your rule book
- Open it to page 21
- Under "Squad Building" about 2/3 of the way down the left hand side
- Read the "IF ALL PLAYERS AGREE" paragraph

The game is not designed to min-max your fleet by combining Weyoun with Conditional Surrender or any other cross faction shenanigans.

If it's causing a problem in your OP - stop alllowing it.
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Whizzwang wrote:
The game is not designed to min-max your fleet by combining Weyoun with Conditional Surrender or any other cross faction shenanigans.


This is 100% untrue. Andrew has stated the game was designed and balanced for mix faction play.

If players weren't minmaxing the mixed faction scene, they would start minmaxing faction pure scene and crazy combos would come out there too and power fleets would emerge.
 
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Nathan Reukauf
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OmegaDolphin wrote:


The original poster is lamenting that now his OP events are done, and players are using resources in casual games, hinting that they are using them against players who don't have access to them for whatever reason. I'm suggesting that to remedy that you either find ways to get all the resources out to all the players, or you disallow them at your casual play nights. Ban resources, not cards.


Sort of. I'd like to bring the resources down a notch so people can still use those as well. After all aren't resources cards as well? However I feel that the advantage of being able to use certain ones, specifically the flagship card, unchecked leads to combos that give advantages to the players with the resource over other players. Now while I feel that flagship is unfair, I'd rather try to tone it down instead of ban it, since it is a fun a card.

I am well aware that angry combos exist, always will, and of course people will always argue about whether or not they are fair or intended. Not the point here. The two rules I proposed are not designed to stop a specific combo but to help stop overpowered combos, that new players can't have access to, from arising when using the said resources in future settings.
 
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Stanton Lackey
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jmdt784 wrote:
Once we start getting 1 and 2 ship factions starting in the next wave, 'just run pure factions' isn't a good answer anymore. Forcing people to but 3-4 or the single 8472 or Kazon ship to play in an OP is just ridiculous. Leave pure and thamatic play for mission night.


Well there is your problem you are thinking in terms of all or nothing. Instead of making people play 100% of one faction, you just limit people to only playing upgrades and captains on ships that belong to that faction. I've said this in other threads and it is what our play group does and it works out great.

@Crazy Fella, yeah sorry I misinterpreted your response to be toward the OP having problems with the 'Dreadnaught' build. In regard to the resources though, do you really believe that banning resources in fun games is ok? They are fun games dictated by only the two players who play in them. Hell they could do 150 points vs 100 points with one hand tied behind his back... Then there is the question of if the resources actually give you and advantage over those who don't use them. Here I will concede that I do believe the 10 points for a flagship are worth it in almost any situation, but to the degree that it would make a casual game broken and unfun, I don't think so.
 
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Stanton Lackey
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jmdt784 wrote:
Whizzwang wrote:
The game is not designed to min-max your fleet by combining Weyoun with Conditional Surrender or any other cross faction shenanigans.


This is 100% untrue. Andrew has stated the game was designed and balanced for mix faction play.

If players weren't minmaxing the mixed faction scene, they would start minmaxing faction pure scene and crazy combos would come out there too and power fleets would emerge.


Not quite, I believe he mentioned that it was something they realized after they started producing the game, and it made them happy to think of some of the fantasy builds they could do. That said, you can clearly see that the game designers hardly take into consideration cross faction cards when they produce new ships, this build was spotted almost immediately after shroud was released...
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Allen Gould
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SaintofVirtue wrote:

"2. Flagship that gives you a talent, Weyoun 6, Conditional surrender , any crew, add Shrouds if you want. Min cost 10+4+4=18+crew"

Min cost is 19, true. But you're getting much more than this combo. You get the flagship bonus, whatever the crew gives and a Skill 6 captain. All of which are worth taking on their own.


On the other hand, that 19 points is *before* you put a ship out there. So now we're talking about having somewhere around half your build dedicated to this single trick (assuming a Dom ship, it looks to be either 45 or 55 points if you take the heavy). So, the question becomes, what's a reasonable OPFOR at ~50 points? And can this Dom ship keep up with it?
 
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