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Subject: Unintended effects from combo rss

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Cheyenne Cummings

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Recently in play testing OP builds, we have discovered something I don't think was intended in the game. Weyoun/Varel combo!

If someone is running this combo and the game comes down to 1v1 ship there is no way for the opponent to win. Weyoun would be disabled every turn to keep Varel from being discarded. This means they could never destroy the ship with just one ship, they must have 2.

I know most of you are going to say that is not true, but unless you building a fleet specifically for this situation you are not going to have the needed abilities and even bumping ships will not remove the Weyoun (6)/ Varel combo as neither is an action.

Next throw on an interphase generator and you might as well give up on the ship and hope for more fleet points.
 
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draconics
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Re: I intended effects from combo
While Weyoun/Varel combo is not an action, it does take an actio to remove the disabled token from Weyoun, so making them bump into you would be a counter.
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Trueflight Silverwing
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Re: I intended effects from combo
Yep that would be my counter to this scenario if it came to one on one. Get in their way and force them to bump into you or an object to take away their action.
 
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Skyguard
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Re: I intended effects from combo
Just wait till you find the Weyoun 6/flagship that gives a talent/Conditional Surrender/any 1 crew member combo :-) Add shrouds for even more crazy attack cancelling fun.

 
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Cheyenne Cummings

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Skyguard wrote:
Just wait till you find the Weyoun 6/flagship that gives a talent/Conditional Surrender/any 1 crew member combo :-) Add shrouds for even more crazy attack cancelling fun.



I know about them, I'm just trying to point out that the game was not designed to have indestructible ships. At least in my understanding of the game this was not how it was designed. Ships are supposed to be able to be destroyed.

In a 1v1 fight there is no way to destroy a weyoun/Varel combo or the weyoun/conditional surrender/shroud/crew combo. It would be nearly impossible to bump your opponent 2 turns in a row. And since their ship will almost certainly cost more they can just run from you till the game ends and win because you couldn't attack.

Some cards say discard crew but weyou will disable to avoid that and now you have discarded your card to do that. There are also cards that say disable an upgrade. In the end you hVe to build a fleet to specifically beat this situation and that kills your ability to manage other fleets.

The only solution I currently see is running Klingon boarding party and projected status field. Ship moves up (lvl 1 captain) action projected status field, then second ship moves up and played Klingon boarding party, this would give you two turns to destroy the ship and in the process you will loose a ship (lvl 1 captain has no shields nor is it cloaked).

Only problem is it's extremely dependent on set up and the likelihood of all the above happening is slim. Luckily this build is also designed to defeat dreadnought builds.
 
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Aaron Percival
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I see the meta swinging that way, personally. When Feds get more tools for their box and people start to play more Feds (crew reliant), we'll start seeing more KBP and PSF and the Breen equivalent. Maybe when Shinzon's ship (the name escapes me right now) we'll see a Reman Boarding Party. Feds may get an Away Team or something to go with O'Brian.
 
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Skyguard
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Their are a lot of ways to counter attack cancelers

A few quick ideas
1. Core set O'Brian
2. Bumping to keep Weyoun 6 from being cleared
3. Aux Tokens again to keep Weyoun 6 from being cleared
4. Multiple attackers or attacks in a turn
5. Chang to disable Weyoun 6
6. Mines
7. Gelnon to get an extra mini attack as an action
8. Any of the Jem’Hadar crew attack cards (again you are forcing the early disable of Wyoun 6)


One thing to note is that these builds want you to get down to 1v1 so know that going into the round, and play accordingly don't just be happy to trade them 1 for 1 in the engagement if you have the same number of ships.

Just like when you see a fleet running BoF you know you are going to want to try and keep that ship at range 3 and hit it fast, look for areas where you can hurt the attack canceling fleet, (it doesn't seem to me to want to get in a tight turning fight as a bump can end the combo).
 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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swingk2121 wrote:
Recently in play testing OP builds, we have discovered something I don't think was intended in the game. Weyoun/Varel combo!

If someone is running this combo and the game comes down to 1v1 ship there is no way for the opponent to win. Weyoun would be disabled every turn to keep Varel from being discarded. This means they could never destroy the ship with just one ship, they must have 2.

I know most of you are going to say that is not true, but unless you building a fleet specifically for this situation you are not going to have the needed abilities and even bumping ships will not remove the Weyoun (6)/ Varel combo as neither is an action.

Next throw on an interphase generator and you might as well give up on the ship and hope for more fleet points.


People in my area have been playing this combo for months, including at OPs, and it hasn't won anything yet. Its annoying, but really not that hard to defeat if you know how.
 
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Allen Gould
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swingk2121 wrote:


In a 1v1 fight there is no way to destroy a weyoun/Varel combo or the weyoun/conditional surrender/shroud/crew combo. It would be nearly impossible to bump your opponent 2 turns in a row. And since their ship will almost certainly cost more they can just run from you till the game ends and win because you couldn't attack.

Depends on what ship they're running. One of them is off-faction, and unless you're flying Apnex Varel is going to be *very* expensive.

Quote:

Some cards say discard crew but weyou will disable to avoid that and now you have discarded your card to do that. There are also cards that say disable an upgrade. In the end you hVe to build a fleet to specifically beat this situation and that kills your ability to manage other fleets.

You're thinking of it wrong. This combo uses their action every turn. So if you make Weyoun disable early (to prevent Varel getting smoked), then he *can't* stop the attack that turn. Ditto if he's bumped or picks up a power token. You simply have to overload the ship so it can't keep up with the tokens.

Chase him down, shoot to make him disable, then get in front and bump - he can't clear, you get a shot in. Either he accepts the damage or loses Varel. If you can disable Varel, that's even better - then Weyoun can't work at all that turn.
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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When Weyoun came out, Andrew mentioned that we were vastly underrating him and that he was a powerful captain. People are just now seeing the full potential of what Weyoun has been able to do for a long time.
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Sodoff Baldrick
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If it comes down to 1 on 1 bumping is not the answer. When disabled weyoun becomes captain skill 1, so in most cases he will be moving first. It is very difficult to force the person moving first to bump when you have only one ship. This thread is all the more reason that OPs should be faction pure fleets.
 
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Mr S Baldrick wrote:
If it comes down to 1 on 1 bumping is not the answer. When disabled weyoun becomes captain skill 1, so in most cases he will be moving first. It is very difficult to force the person moving first to bump when you have only one ship. This thread is all the more reason that OPs should be faction pure fleets.


If it comes down to 1vs1 in a weyoun attack cancel build you have played into your opponent build, yes at that point you're looking at having a bad day. But that's no different then any time you play into a builds strength.

I've played the Weyoun/Varel combo on a three ship dom build in OP4 and yes I was able to knock out a 2 ship fed build pretty easily as they didn't see it coming and played into my build by leaving the ship with Weyoun for last, but I got my fleet handed to me by a 4/5 ship Klingon fleet, and lost to another two ship fleet who saw what I was doing right off the bat and went after the ship with weyoun first. It cost so much to use I'm just not see it as a threat. 15% of your fleet is tied up in canceling an attack. I even ran it using the sideboard to cut down the cost and it still wasn't that great, maybe on a two Keldon build you could get more out of it, but I just didn't think it was that great of a build after using it.

Don't get me wrong the Weyoun/CS can be a really nasty combo and the Weyoun/CS/Shroud needs to be watched to make sure in play it's not out of hand. (I agree that I'm not sure the game designers saw how you could use CS if you could some how get it on Weyoun, by adding the flagship) but I feel like there are a bunch of counters to it in the game right now, many of which I'm seeing played before all the cards came out to use this combo, so it's not even a case of people hard countering it.

One plus of all of this is it may end my dislike of Chang. He is no longer one of the worst captains in my eyes.

If you really think it's killing the game right now the simple fix is just to add the words to Conditional Surrender card "and then disable this talent to the end of the 1st sentence." But I'm not real sure we are there yet.


 
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Sodoff Baldrick
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Skyguard wrote:
Mr S Baldrick wrote:
If it comes down to 1 on 1 bumping is not the answer. When disabled weyoun becomes captain skill 1, so in most cases he will be moving first. It is very difficult to force the person moving first to bump when you have only one ship. This thread is all the more reason that OPs should be faction pure fleets.


If it comes down to 1vs1 in a weyoun attack cancel build you have played into your opponent build, yes at that point you're looking at having a bad day. But that's no different then any time you play into a builds strength.

I've played the Weyoun/Varel combo on a three ship dom build in OP4 and yes I was able to knock out a 2 ship fed build pretty easily as they didn't see it coming and played into my build by leaving the ship with Weyoun for last, but I got my fleet handed to me by a 4/5 ship Klingon fleet, and lost to another two ship fleet who saw what I was doing right off the bat and went after the ship with weyoun first. It cost so much to use I'm just not see it as a threat. 15% of your fleet is tied up in canceling an attack. I even ran it using the sideboard to cut down the cost and it still wasn't that great, maybe on a two Keldon build you could get more out of it, but I just didn't think it was that great of a build after using it.

Don't get me wrong the Weyoun/CS can be a really nasty combo and the Weyoun/CS/Shroud needs to be watched to make sure in play it's not out of hand. (I agree that I'm not sure the game designers saw how you could use CS if you could some how get it on Weyoun, by adding the flagship) but I feel like there are a bunch of counters to it in the game right now, many of which I'm seeing played before all the cards came out to use this combo, so it's not even a case of people hard countering it.

One plus of all of this is it may fact end my dislike of Chang. He is no longer one of the worst captains in my eyes.

If you really think it's killing the game right now the simple fix is just to add the words to Conditional Surrender card "and then disable this talent to the end of the 1st sentence." But I'm not real sure we are there yet.




I never said that it wasn't playing right into their hands to leave weyoun until last. I would focus fire on that thing all day. However I was merely pointing out to all of the above who suggested it, that bumping weyoun would not solve the problem. The easiest way to avoid these kinds of things without altering card texts is to play faction pure but that is going to be up tp TOs. If they see it things getting out of hand in their area its the easiest way.
 
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Stephen Thorpe
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I really don't mind the increasing popularity of the Weyoun Varel or Conditional Surrender combo.

For months everyone disparaged crew-ganking cards as useless with the mitigating phrase "O'Brian might be worth it I suppose" or some other paraphrase.

All you seem to hear now is "Original Miles" is a must include or the go to counter.

Chang who was dubbed useless and the worst captain going is finding more play as a counter card.

Basically I like this combination because it has moved part of the emphasis from "forget about defence or upgrades just go with shoot first and every attack dice bonus you can wrack up" onto more balanced builds.

While you still see aggressive builds more often than not they need to include some spoiler cards to cope with the attack nullification combos.

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Xander Fulton
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SteRT wrote:
Chang who was dubbed useless and the worst captain going is finding more play as a counter card.


I remain skeptical Chang will see much use - he just takes too many actions to use his ability. If the ability, itself, was passive - that would be one thing. Or maybe if you still needed to use an action to do it and HAVE a target lock...but didn't have to SPEND it...then, again, maybe something.

As it is, you have to spend two turns worth of actions on him to deny the enemy a SINGLE action (re-enabling the captain card instead of doing something else he'd rather do).

(And it's worth pointing out that Chang won't even work on Weyoun. He's the same captain skill, and with equal point lists, will usually have initiative over Weyoun - IE., he actions first. So he disables Weyoun...two seconds later, Weyoun does his move+action and just re-enables himself.)
 
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XanderF wrote:

Weyoun does his move+action and just re-enables himself.)


Not if Weyoun was used the round before he would then action at Captain 1.

 
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Jonathan M D Thomas
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Skyguard wrote:
XanderF wrote:

Weyoun does his move+action and just re-enables himself.)


Not if Weyoun was used the round before he would then action at Captain 1.



Weyoun/Varel or its ilk is good for the game and here's why:

It really makes people rethink uber-alpha-strike-BoF-bucket-of-dice type of builds as it can negate that big attack.

It will in the end add variety to the game as people try to out metagame each other and make fleets to take on multiple fleet types.
 
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Ted Kay
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This isn't an unintended effect. This is a completely valid strategy.

Let's build to beat the Weyoun-Conditional Surrender Koranak:

IKS Maht-H'a - 28
Koloth - 4
Projected Stasis Field - 5
Korax - 3
Klingon Boarding Party - 5

IKS Koraga - 26
Dominion Indepedent Flagship - 10
Martok - 5
Drex - 4
Klag - 1
Photon Torpedoes - 5
Concussive Charges - 4
---

...Maht-H'a can get into Range 1-2. Then it can use Projected Stasis Field and follow up with Martok free action to KBP the crap out of Weyoun's ship. Weyoun can't do anything to attack this round because of the Stasis Field. His combo is broken with Conditional Surrender disabled, and he's already activated this round. If Martok thinks the situation is right, he can beam over Klag to force Weyoun to disable himself or give up the whole defense strategy there. Either way, Weyoun's ship, which is probably a Koranak flagship with three shrouds, has a mere five hull and two base agility to rely on for defense that round, unless Weyoun had the forethought to take an evade token and not a battle stations, since KBP also removes those. And if he survives somehow? You've still potentially got every card on the ship disabled. He can't get the combo working without at least two turns if he disabled himself to prevent Klag, and he's got two angry Klingons on him, one of which can fire out a rear arc.

If you can't beat a combo, it's because you are refusing to adapt your tactics to the point where your success is being compromised. Luck aside, this game is positioning and poker. Understanding something is out there that is difficult to beat, but failing to adapt to it is not evidence that the particular combination is to blame. Look for your own errors before faulting the fundamentals of the game. You're much more likely to find something you can fix there, and may find a more enjoyable experience. Or you can keep flying the same way with similar goals. I just wouldn't expect different results.

I understand being on the losing side of a list with great synergy. I empathize. I guess I'm saying to try smarter, not harder.
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Scott Pitner
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XanderF wrote:
SteRT wrote:
Chang who was dubbed useless and the worst captain going is finding more play as a counter card.


I remain skeptical Chang will see much use - he just takes too many actions to use his ability. If the ability, itself, was passive - that would be one thing. Or maybe if you still needed to use an action to do it and HAVE a target lock...but didn't have to SPEND it...then, again, maybe something.

As it is, you have to spend two turns worth of actions on him to deny the enemy a SINGLE action (re-enabling the captain card instead of doing something else he'd rather do).

(And it's worth pointing out that Chang won't even work on Weyoun. He's the same captain skill, and with equal point lists, will usually have initiative over Weyoun - IE., he actions first. So he disables Weyoun...two seconds later, Weyoun does his move+action and just re-enables himself.)


You have to combo Chang with Martok8. Chang gets the TL, Martok8 gives him the additional action to disable Weyoun after Weyoun has taken their turn. I had that ready to go except I didn't face anyone with the combo, oh well Yeah it's a lot of cards, but you would frequently include Martok8 in a lot of builds anyway.
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Sodoff Baldrick
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Chang on the flagship that gets a free target lock is not a bad idea either. However after OP6 the flagships are probably going away and we will be getting a whole new bag of resources for the collective.
 
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FortuneFavorTheBold wrote:

If you can't beat a combo, it's because you are refusing to adapt your tactics to the point where your success is being compromised. Luck aside, this game is positioning and poker. Understanding something is out there that is difficult to beat, but failing to adapt to it is not evidence that the particular combination is to blame. Look for your own errors before faulting the fundamentals of the game. You're much more likely to find something you can fix there, and may find a more enjoyable experience. Or you can keep flying the same way with similar goals. I just wouldn't expect different results.


This basically...
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Xander Fulton
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Skyguard wrote:
XanderF wrote:

Weyoun does his move+action and just re-enables himself.)


Not if Weyoun was used the round before he would then action at Captain 1.



Of course he would - he still only has one 'disable' token (you can't add another 'disable' token to a captain already disabled), so he still just moves + re-enables himself.

It really makes no sense to use Chang against higher skill captains, or captains that he has initiative over, as they simply re-enable themselves right after his action.
 
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Stephen Thorpe
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The point being if you used Weyoun the previous turn then the ship he's on is now Skill 1 at the start of the next turn.

It therefore moves and takes an action (i.e. re-enable Weyoun) before Chang who can then Dis-able Weyoun before the Combat Round with no chance to re-enable.
 
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