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Subject: CMON and KS Performance rss

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James Resner
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First let me state that I come into this completely neutral, with zero prior knowledge of CMON or their products.

I saw the AQ on Kickstarter and it got me researching.

Krosmaster and SDE look interesting but my first impression is that you are paying more for the minis than the level of effort put into the game design/mechanics.

Can someone that is familiar with either Kros and/or SDE make an analogy to another game that it plays "like" in terms of mechanics and/or complexity?

My other big concern is KS delivery.

I looked up CMON's relic Knight and it had a targeted delivery date of may 2013 and it appears it will be May 2014 at earliest.

While I don;t mind supporting a game through KS, ponying up money for a product that will take 15+ months to receive seems a bit sketchy to me.

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Brian Nors Jensen
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Close to all KS games gets D6 months delayd, regardless of the publisher.
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Jonathan Petersen
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I'm not supporting this game for exactly this reason. The two CMON Kickstarters I've backed, Sedition Wars and Relic Knights, were/are extremely poorly managed.

- Sedition Wars: both waves were late, the rules were borked (and there still isn't a final ruleset), the wave 2 minis had some fairly major QC issues. It's a hassle to even figure out how to play the game at this point.
- Relic Knights is looking to be at least a year late, with extremely poor communication from CMON about the delays (lengthy delay notifications coming right at the time the game was supposed to be shipping out).

IMO, CMON is focusing too much on getting their shiny new Kickstarters up and funded, and not paying enough attention to the ones they're supposed to be getting out the door.
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Troy eland
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Relic knights got a D12 then
 
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Rochambeaux wrote:
My other big concern is KS delivery.


KS = late delivery.

If you want your games sooner, there are *plenty* of good games you can buy right now at the OLGS. Some of these games even sell for the same discount as you would pay during a KS. For many high-profile KS games, the mini's *are* the KS, because miniatures gamers spend money and BGG'ers don't. So if you don't want the man-dollies and enjoy Eurogames, look for cereals that don't have the toys. They're there, they just don't get the bright and shiny attention.

Also, fyi, unlike most KS I've seen, CMON looks more like a "middleman" in that they help boardgame companies fulfill KS projects. IRL, CMON also sells miniatures for other companies, so this makes sense. After Alien Assimilation Host, however, I see if that a company's juggling multiple projects, and I'm only one of them, I'm not going to get the attention that your typical KS creator who is only managing one project will receive.
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Jaru Rainn
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I back both Zombicide 1 and 2 and I feel I got both the games in decent amount of time (compared to other KS).
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James Resner
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Sam and Max wrote:
Rochambeaux wrote:
My other big concern is KS delivery.


KS = late delivery.

If you want your games sooner, there are *plenty* of good games you can buy right now at the OLGS. Some of these games even sell for the same discount as you would pay during a KS. For many high-profile KS games, the mini's *are* the KS, because miniatures gamers spend money and BGG'ers don't. So if you don't want the man-dollies and enjoy Eurogames, look for cereals that don't have the toys. They're there, they just don't get the bright and shiny attention.

Also, fyi, unlike most KS I've seen, CMON looks more like a "middleman" in that they help boardgame companies fulfill KS projects. IRL, CMON also sells miniatures for other companies, so this makes sense. After Alien Assimilation Host, however, I see if that a company's juggling multiple projects, and I'm only one of them, I'm not going to get the attention that your typical KS creator who is only managing one project will receive.


Not sure what you're trying to say here..

I'm not into "miniatures" per se but am willing to pay a reasonable price for them if they are (a) quality and (b) go with a decent game with good design/mechanics.

Also, I spend plenty on board games and again, am willing to spend the dough if the game warrants it; also can't stand Eurogames in general, so again not sure what sterotype your addressing here.

And like any business, if people tolerate poor performance then there's no reason for the business model to change. I personally think KS is going to look very different in 12-18 months due to the rash of missed deadlines, poor quality products and abysmal delays.

KS should be an alternative fro people to fund a **business** project, not a charitable handout.
 
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Brant Benoit
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Just an FYI - Krosmaster Arena is a great game, and tons of fun. It's mostly about the minis, but there is a really good game under all that chrome.

As for CMoN projects, the first couple were badly managed (Sedition Wars, and Relic Knights) but the rest have been fine, aside from being a little late (a few months at most).

I haven't been really disappointed in a project I've backed so far from them, but only two have delivered so far (and waiting on second waves) - the other two are apparently on time. The two that have delivered were a month late, and the other one was 3 months late. Nothing to really be concerned about.

I wouldn't worry about CMoN botching any more campaigns - it appears they have learned their lesson.

Oh, one more thing:

Krosmaster plays more like a miniatures skirmish and MtG.
SDE is more along the lines of Descent, except much simpler.
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Stokes
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I backed Sedition Wars. I regret it.

I backed Rivet Wars. I regret not pledging more.

I think a lot of it depends on the companies working with CMoN on the Kickstarter.

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Jaru Rainn
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Biomage wrote:
I backed Sedition Wars. I regret it.

I backed Rivet Wars. I regret not pledging more.

I think a lot of it depends on the companies working with CMoN on the Kickstarter.



I totally agree.
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Kirk Bauer
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enoto wrote:
I'm not supporting this game for exactly this reason. The two CMON Kickstarters I've backed, Sedition Wars and Relic Knights, were/are extremely poorly...


Interesting. I didn't back those, but I did back Zombicide S1 and S2 and Rivet Wars and have been very happy with all three.
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Michelle
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Kinda funny that Zombicide S2 backers aren't mentioning that CMON still hasn't even fulfilled their entire pledge yet. There are still a number of stretch goal extras waiting to be finished up and sent out for the S2 campaign. Not that I think that CMON won't eventually get around to it, but I think it's important to note that CMON still has multiple unfulfilled Kickstarter projects going on currently.
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Kirk Bauer
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breegull wrote:
Kinda funny that Zombicide S2 backers aren't mentioning that CMON still hasn't even fulfilled their entire pledge yet. There are still a number of stretch goal extras waiting to be finished up and sent out for the S2 campaign. Not that I think that CMON won't eventually get around to it, but I think it's important to note that CMON still has multiple unfulfilled Kickstarter projects going on currently.


I guess it doesn't bother me. I had the games and a bunch of extras pretty much on-time, and they have had decent communication on the rest which are not really that critical. In fact, I think it was always the plan for those to be shipped later?
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kirkbauer wrote:
breegull wrote:
Kinda funny that Zombicide S2 backers aren't mentioning that CMON still hasn't even fulfilled their entire pledge yet. There are still a number of stretch goal extras waiting to be finished up and sent out for the S2 campaign. Not that I think that CMON won't eventually get around to it, but I think it's important to note that CMON still has multiple unfulfilled Kickstarter projects going on currently.


I guess it doesn't bother me. I had the games and a bunch of extras pretty much on-time, and they have had decent communication on the rest which are not really that critical. In fact, I think it was always the plan for those to be shipped later?


Yes, NO ONE has received the complete Zombicide S2 pledge yet, as Wave 2 will be shipped soon (as it always has been said). The problem was, CMON did sell Zombicide PO at GenCon and then did not deliver to the Kickstarter backers - for some like me, not until December or even January.
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Magic Pink
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As for Krosmaster, yes they deliver on time but they're ridiculously overpriced, never listen to their backers and are pulling some really shady stuff in their projects, like hiring attractive girls to be the community contacts so they don't get yelled at as much. They really like to "suddenly" unlock all the stretch goals towards the end of the projects (which means the goals were actually already manufactured) as well as add "bonuses" that are useless to the game like multiple copies of promos that, in game, can only be used once anyway. Not to mention the fact that the games are already printed and done and they're really just using it as a pre-order system.

CMON is far better; they have been hit with some really bad delays but I don't think that's their fault.
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Kirk Bauer
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murks666 wrote:
The problem was, CMON did sell Zombicide PO at GenCon and then did not deliver to the Kickstarter backers - for some like me, not until December or even January.


Yeah, I can understand if people were/are upset about that. Personally I'm never worried about being the first to get something, but it really should be standard in the KS world that the people who paid a long time ago should get it first. Of course in this case we got lots of exclusive content which, in my mind, helps make up for this problem.
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James Resner
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Out of curiosity I did an eBay search for "Kickstarter game" and it seemed like a big majority of the results were for Krosmaster.

Not sure what that says - could be interpreted a couple different ways.
 
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Paul Chamberland
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Rochambeaux wrote:
Out of curiosity I did an eBay search for "Kickstarter game" and it seemed like a big majority of the results were for Krosmaster.

Not sure what that says - could be interpreted a couple different ways.

Mostly the promos and other add-ons not available at retail.

I did the same search and I see a lot more Zombicide and Reaper Bones in the results than I do Krosmaster.
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murks666 wrote:
kirkbauer wrote:
breegull wrote:
Kinda funny that Zombicide S2 backers aren't mentioning that CMON still hasn't even fulfilled their entire pledge yet. There are still a number of stretch goal extras waiting to be finished up and sent out for the S2 campaign. Not that I think that CMON won't eventually get around to it, but I think it's important to note that CMON still has multiple unfulfilled Kickstarter projects going on currently.


I guess it doesn't bother me. I had the games and a bunch of extras pretty much on-time, and they have had decent communication on the rest which are not really that critical. In fact, I think it was always the plan for those to be shipped later?


Yes, NO ONE has received the complete Zombicide S2 pledge yet, as Wave 2 will be shipped soon (as it always has been said). The problem was, CMON did sell Zombicide PO at GenCon and then did not deliver to the Kickstarter backers - for some like me, not until December or even January.


I consider selling at GenCon a non-issue. They said up front that if they had the game by then it would be for sale there whether they were done shipping to backers or not. They did the exact same thing with Zombicide 1. Yes once shipping started it took a lot of time for everything to ship but that was also to be expected, it does actually take time to pack and ship things and compared to many other kickstarters they were still done first wave shipping at a point that others are still talking about their delays getting things from China and how they hope to ship soon.
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Brant Benoit
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Rochambeaux wrote:
Out of curiosity I did an eBay search for "Kickstarter game" and it seemed like a big majority of the results were for Krosmaster.

Not sure what that says - could be interpreted a couple different ways.


Krosmaster comes up because there is a lot of promotional figures and extras that aren't sold at retail.
It's only natural for speculators, and eBay sellers to cash in on such things. Add to this that the cost of all of those extras is pretty high even if you backed the Kickstarter.

Krosmaster has a large secondary market due to the limits put on the availability of the promo minis/terrain over in France, where the market for the game is very large.

Thus, you're going to see a lot of promotional materials, and limited releases for sale on eBay.

Trust me though - the game is good, and based on what you enjoy playing, you'll probably really like it.
 
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Jonathan Petersen
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kirkbauer wrote:
enoto wrote:
I'm not supporting this game for exactly this reason. The two CMON Kickstarters I've backed, Sedition Wars and Relic Knights, were/are extremely poorly...


Interesting. I didn't back those, but I did back Zombicide S1 and S2 and Rivet Wars and have been very happy with all three.
Sounds like you backed the good ones, and I backed the bad ones.

CMON has 9 projects on KS:
Zombicide 1
Sedition Wars
Relic Knights
Guilds of Cadwallon
Rivet Wars
Zombicide 2
Kaosball
Wrath of Kings
Arcadia Quest

Seems too early to say anything on WoK and certainly on AQ.

Of the other 7 projects, it seems that backers of Z1, Rivet Wars, and Z2 are generally happy, excluding some delays and late ships of Z2 product. Backers of SW, RK, and Kaosball seem to be generally unhappy (because of product quality, and/or long delays and CMON communication). Guilds of Cadwallon seems like a solid "Meh" -- 6.8 BGG rating, with only one review, whose summary starts: "This game did feel a lot like an overly glorified game of Tic-Tac-Toe".

I mean, of course if you're happy with previous CMON releases then back this project, but to me, both from experience of the two projects I've personally backed as well as their overall track record, CMON doesn't seem like an especially good bet.
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Adam Garcia Smith
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Zombicide 2 is not late.... yet.

they announced Q1 delivery of the second part... and we are in Q1...

So the 1st of April I will start bitching
 
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My biggest gripe with CMoN projects is the awful communication which, rightly or wrongly, gives the impression of poor planning and organisation.

I can live with (reasonable) delays if the communication is good. In the Z2 KS it's felt like we were being given the run-around when it came to the Wave 1 shipment.

I also think the quality of the minis in Z2 are worse than Z1.

It does concern me about backing AQ; especially with the unknown postage costs.
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Rochambeaux wrote:
Krosmaster and SDE look interesting but my first impression is that you are paying more for the minis than the level of effort put into the game design/mechanics.


I can't speak to Krosmaster, cause I don't have it. But I see nothing wrong with SDE game design/mechanics. I still enjoy the game. Now, a Co-Op mode has been something people have been asking for since the very beginning and will soon be getting in their upcoming Kickstarter, without CMoN.

As for delivery, I'll echo what everyone else has said here. Never go by the target delivery date. I've only backed a hand full of projects and only part of one has been fufilled (Zombicide Season 2). And that one has been stated already. I will say I have been less upset with Myth and their handling of missing the delivery dates. They have been great about keeping backers informed. This last month has been a little sparse but, from what we're told that's cause they aren't getting much information from their shipper other than "it's on the way."
 
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Kirk Bauer
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Callador wrote:
Zombicide 2 is not late.... yet.

they announced Q1 delivery of the second part... and we are in Q1...

So the 1st of April I will start bitching


They just sent an update that they should start shipping next week.
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