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Subject: Initiative and captain skill - Question rss

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Maurice Stanley
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Okay me and a close friend of mine were playing recently.
We have both read and understand the rules.
We both have fun playing against each other.
The problem is we understand the rules in different ways.
So what is right?

To me captain skill is:
captains activate in order lowest to highest if you have initiative at a joint captain skill the captain with initiative goes first
Then captains shoot in reverse order (highest to lowest) with the captain with initiative shooting first - initiative being lowest total sp of fleet or if joint person who won the roll off
(basically lower captains making there move to early due to the pressure/inexperience while higher level captains take time to make sure there decision is best before committing this pays off when firing as the opponents in the right place and the right time for the attack)

To my friend captain skill is superseded by initiative.
All ships activate together and go by the fleet who has the lowest sp total.(A.k.a. the underdog always has a better chance of winning)

Who is right?
My thoughts are from playing against another friend and slowly working our way though the rules to come from a co-learning/playing situation in context
His thoughts are from watching online video's and after watching one or two armchair admirals video's i can see where he is coming from as a lot of the turn is cut out just showing the results of the end of the turn.

Please help me settle this in my mind so I can be clear on the point because we have had this discussion a few times and when the rule book gets pulled out i get a little put out as we havent even started and already were refering to the rules and fine print
 
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Geo
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MGCS3 wrote:
captains activate in order lowest to highest if you have initiative at a joint captain skill the captain with initiative goes first last


Then they attack in reverse order, higher to lower.
 
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Maurice Stanley
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Thanks for the quick answer
ooops at my mistake I will make sure i correct this in my mind
 
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Waspinator
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Initiative is only used to determine order between ships with the same captain skill. Also, the "lower fleet points has initiative" thing is only determined at the start of the game.
 
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David Montgomery
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To be explicitly clear.

Imagine you have a fleet of skill 2, skill 5, and skill 9 captains.
Your opponent has skill 3,4,5.
Both 5's are in Klingon ships.

You both have 100 points.

At the start of the game, you determine who has initiative, you win.

The movement order is
Your 2
Opponent 3
Opponent 4
Your 5
Opponent 5
Your 9.

Firing order is
Your 9
Your 5
Opponent 5
Opponent 4
Opponent 3
Your 2.

If the 5's were in different faction ships, then you'd use faction initiative order to determine the order for those 2 ships.
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Brad Whiteman
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The short way is that the order is determined in this priority

1. Captain Skill
2. Ship Faction
3. Points
4. Dice off at beginning of game

You only go to the next level if the previous is a tie.
 
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Paul Kitchin
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GeoMan wrote:
MGCS3 wrote:
captains activate in order lowest to highest if you have initiative at a joint captain skill the captain with initiative goes first last


Then they attack in reverse order, higher to lower.


Noooooo the OP had it right! Check page 18. For tied captain skills, the one with initiative activates first AND shoots first.

When there are multiple captains of the same skill, the activation order is NOT simply the reverse of the shooting order!
 
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Aaron Percival
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Paul is correct. Initiative both moves and shoots first.
 
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Robert Chest
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Unless there has been a ruling overriding the rulebook, I believe the order is:

1. Captain Skill
2. Fleet SP when squad building
3. Ship faction
4. Dice off at the beginning of the game

This is different than what someone else wrote earlier, but this is definitely how it appears in the rule book on page 18 and 21.
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Paul Romer
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Knightime32 wrote:
Unless there has been a ruling overriding the rulebook, I believe the order is:

1. Captain Skill
2. Fleet SP when squad building
3. Ship faction
4. Dice off at the beginning of the game

This is different than what someone else wrote earlier, but this is definitely how it appears in the rule book on page 18 and 21.


This is correct assuming a multi-ship fleet. Fleet SP supersedes ship faction. The exception is if it's a 1 on 1 match. If that's the case it goes straight to faction regardless of if someone spent less points on their one ship.
 
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Xander Fulton
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LoneWolfPR wrote:
Knightime32 wrote:
Unless there has been a ruling overriding the rulebook, I believe the order is:

1. Captain Skill
2. Fleet SP when squad building
3. Ship faction
4. Dice off at the beginning of the game

This is different than what someone else wrote earlier, but this is definitely how it appears in the rule book on page 18 and 21.


This is correct assuming a multi-ship fleet. Fleet SP supersedes ship faction. The exception is if it's a 1 on 1 match. If that's the case it goes straight to faction regardless of if someone spent less points on their one ship.


No, captain skill never determines initiative.

Captain skill determines order, but initiative is used to break ties when the skill is tied - and, as noted, it works backwards from captain skill in the firing phase.

IE., lower captain skills move first, but shoot second. While the initiative ship moves first AND shoots first in a tie of skill.
 
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Hero Guy
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XanderF wrote:
LoneWolfPR wrote:
Knightime32 wrote:
Unless there has been a ruling overriding the rulebook, I believe the order is:

1. Captain Skill
2. Fleet SP when squad building
3. Ship faction
4. Dice off at the beginning of the game

This is different than what someone else wrote earlier, but this is definitely how it appears in the rule book on page 18 and 21.


This is correct assuming a multi-ship fleet. Fleet SP supersedes ship faction. The exception is if it's a 1 on 1 match. If that's the case it goes straight to faction regardless of if someone spent less points on their one ship.


No, captain skill never determines initiative.

Captain skill determines order, but initiative is used to break ties when the skill is tied - and, as noted, it works backwards from captain skill in the firing phase.

IE., better lower captain skills move first, but shoot second. While the initiative ship moves first AND shoots first in a tie of skill.


The lower skills move first and shoot second. A lower skill is not necessarily the better thing to have.

edit: to be more precise:

The lower skill move before higher skill and shoot after higher skill. A lower skill is not necessarily the better thing to have.
 
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John Morales
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Wow, this is clear as mud.

Ok, my understanding is to determine initiative:

If Captain skills are tied, initiative goes to:
1. Lower point total for entire force has initiative. If totals are tied (or not using squad building rules), go to next step.
2. Use order of factions of the ships listed in book, if still tied goto next step.
3. Dice off using battle stations. Higher BS result has initiative rest of game.

That being said, my local store skips step 2. The rulebook as written could be interpreted that way as well. (Implication is that if using squad building rules, the faction order list is never used.) Has there been any ruling on this yet officially? I think after reading the rules a few more times that it should be steps 1 - 3.

 
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Xander Fulton
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mandroid71 wrote:
Wow, this is clear as mud.

Ok, my understanding is to determine initiative:

If Captain skills are tied, initiative goes to:
1. Lower point total for entire force has initiative. If totals are tied (or not using squad building rules), go to next step.
2. Use order of factions of the ships listed in book, if still tied goto next step.
3. Dice off using battle stations. Higher BS result has initiative rest of game.

That being said, my local store skips step 2. The rulebook as written could be interpreted that way as well. (Implication is that if using squad building rules, the faction order list is never used.) Has there been any ruling on this yet officially? I think after reading the rules a few more times that it should be steps 1 - 3.



You might want to read 'initiative when squad building' on page 21 a bit closer. All that section does is add step #1 - otherwise, it says to use the procedure on page 18 (which defines step #2 and step #3 at the same time).
 
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John Morales
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I've read it, but 2nd sentence on page 18 under initiative says "Unless using Squad Building" use the faction list. Which implies you never use it if using squad building which could mean step 2 doesn't exist for force building games, which is how the local OP interprets it.

I don't agree with that interpretation after reading 21, I think it probably MEANT (though it does not SAY this) to go to 21 first, then come back to 18 after. Because 21 refers you back to 18. But you could also interpret that as referring you back to 18 just for the dice off portion.

Needs clarification in my opinion.
 
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Nova Cat
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In the activation phase, ships activate in order of lowest captain to highest captain. Initiative is only used to break ties. If both players have captains of the same skill, then the side with initiative (lowest SP fleet, or roll-off) moves first.

In the combat phase, ships fire in order of highest captain skill to lowest. Again, initiative only matters if there is a tie. In that event, the ship with initiative shoots first.

In other words, Initiative is ONLY used as a tie-breaker, when opposing captains would act simultaneously. The ship with initiative acts first, whether it's moving or shooting.
 
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Xander Fulton
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mandroid71 wrote:
I don't agree with that interpretation after reading 21, I think it probably MEANT (though it does not SAY this) to go to 21 first, then come back to 18 after. Because 21 refers you back to 18. But you could also interpret that as referring you back to 18 just for the dice off portion.


I don't see how anyone could possibly take that interpretation - what else could 21 possibly *mean* but to finish using 18 after the insertion? If the 'using squad building' qualifier meant 18 was only ever a reference to 21, and 21 said to go to 18 if there was a tie in points, you end up with an infinite loop, otherwise.

And how could a TO argue that using step #3 is intended without #2, given they are both describes ONLY on page 18?

You either have an infinite loop, where the game can't be played, or you have to use both #2 and #3 after a tie in #1 - there is no interpretation that lets you use JUST #1 and #3.
 
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Paul Romer
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XanderF wrote:
LoneWolfPR wrote:
Knightime32 wrote:
Unless there has been a ruling overriding the rulebook, I believe the order is:

1. Captain Skill
2. Fleet SP when squad building
3. Ship faction
4. Dice off at the beginning of the game

This is different than what someone else wrote earlier, but this is definitely how it appears in the rule book on page 18 and 21.


This is correct assuming a multi-ship fleet. Fleet SP supersedes ship faction. The exception is if it's a 1 on 1 match. If that's the case it goes straight to faction regardless of if someone spent less points on their one ship.


No, captain skill never determines initiative.

Captain skill determines order, but initiative is used to break ties when the skill is tied - and, as noted, it works backwards from captain skill in the firing phase.

IE., lower captain skills move first, but shoot second. While the initiative ship moves first AND shoots first in a tie of skill.

You are correct. I didn't mean that captain skill determined initiative. I just meant that was the order to look at when determining everything. I wasn't very clear about this.
 
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John Morales
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XanderF wrote:
mandroid71 wrote:
I don't agree with that interpretation after reading 21, I think it probably MEANT (though it does not SAY this) to go to 21 first, then come back to 18 after. Because 21 refers you back to 18. But you could also interpret that as referring you back to 18 just for the dice off portion.


I don't see how anyone could possibly take that interpretation - what else could 21 possibly *mean* but to finish using 18 after the insertion? If the 'using squad building' qualifier meant 18 was only ever a reference to 21, and 21 said to go to 18 if there was a tie in points, you end up with an infinite loop, otherwise.

And how could a TO argue that using step #3 is intended without #2, given they are both describes ONLY on page 18?

You either have an infinite loop, where the game can't be played, or you have to use both #2 and #3 after a tie in #1 - there is no interpretation that lets you use JUST #1 and #3.


Sure there is. It doesn't tell you where to go back to page 18, and there is a part lower on page 18 that says what to do in the case of ties (roll off). The problem is that the part on page 18 that says (paraphrasing) 'Unless using the build rules' which is an absolute statement. No matter how many times I leave and come back to page 18 that statement is still there. And it would be perfectly logical to assume that the direction back to page 18 is just for the latter part of the page that tells you how to resolve ties. Technically that is a very legitimate way to read it as written, no infinite loop at all.


That said, I don't agree that was the intent, I agree that it was probably meant to use the faction list, as it seems unlikely that faction list would be created ONLY for scenarios, but frankly I have nothing to prove that without an errata of some kind to the wording in the rulebook.
 
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initiative basically just determines who deploys first and who attacks first in the event of two captains tied with the same #,

so lowest pts always has initiative, if pts are tied, then you use faction
if faction tied roll off.
 
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