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Subject: Brutii family and expansion rules questions generally rss

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Gary Barnett
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Reading the rules and looking through these forums, there are unfortunately a few ambiguities with the way that this otherwise excellent expansion plays. Having played the expansion a couple of times, I've tried to list some that occur to me below (and the way I played them), in the (hopefully not vain) hope that there may be some official answers or FAQs or otherwise just to try and elicit other views:

General

1. Can you discard two Nubian slaves plus 10 denarii for a Patron tile? (I played no, a Nubian has to be played with either a Greek or German, but am very unsure of this one. The rules specifically say you can't discard pairs of Nubians to get laurels/legions, but is silent in relation to the Patron tile.)

2. The rules say that you can only put one meeple in the Refugium, but you can discard any number of pairs of Greeks/Germans. Can you discard both Greeks/Germans at the same time if you have them? (I would say yes)

3. Does a Tribune count as a scroll for the Favour of the Emperor tile requirements? (I played yes, certainly)

4. Can you obtain more than one Favour of the Emperor tile (I played yes, and pretty confident of this one too)

5. Still 2 points for being the first to complete the set number of achievements? (Played yes)

Brutii family

6. Brutii tokens: Do you resolve all six tokens in a six player game (when others use only 5 meeples)? (Since the rules don't say use less than six and it could result in the Brutii family only having two actions if reduced to resolving only 5 of the 6 tokens, I played the Brutii resolves all six tokens each round, picking the last two immediately after each other if necessary. I realise that there are two different threads in here with differing conclusions and this is a pretty vital question in a six player game. Having played it using all 6 regardless, I think that using only 5 with a 50/50 chance of only getting two actions would be far too much of a disadvantage for the Brutii family. )

7. Brutii and slave card: what exactly does "face-up slave cards not already claimed"? If a person goes to spot one on the Auctionarium and reveals the first two cards and one is a slave card, has that card now been "claimed", so that the Brutii player cannot take that slave card by replacing with two from his hand? (I played that it was already "claimed", but I think it is very debatable since there is no guarantee that the player on spot one will obtain it)

8. Brutii and Favour of the Gods card: the rules do not expressly say that the Brutii player needs to have a Vestal Virgin faction token to play this card. Is the fact that he can only play the card when someone else goes to the Pantheon and he has to take a risk on the actual card there without looking at it to offset the fact he doesn't need the Vestal's faction token first? Or is the need for a Vesgal Virgin token implicit? (I'm really on the fence on this one!)

9. Brutii and the Matrona tile: I think there is an error in the rules here. In the rules it states that the Brutii player who has the Matrona tile only gets the extra two Favour tiles if they have played the Favour of the Emperor action card "this turn". This seems to imply you would need to play that card two rounds in a row to take advantage of the Matrona tile ie in the round in which the next round preparation (phase 8) occurs and the following one! That seems harsh (and inconsistent with how it works for other players). (I played it the normal way (ie get the two tiles in Phase 8 if you have the Matrona tile and then you need to play the Favour of the Emperor card in the following round) and assumed the reference to "this round" was simply an error.)

10. Brutii and the Refugium: the normal rule is that a player can only place one meeple in the Refugium. Can the Brutii player overcome this by playing the Proconsul piece in the Refugium and the Patron card? (I would have said this is not allowed.)

11. Brutii and the Princeps tile: does this allow the Brutii player to pick two tokens in a row (instead of placing two meeples)? (Probably, but actually in many circumstances this wouldn't be a benefit to the Brutii anyway as the Brutii player often benefits from waiting to see what others are doing (except for certain cards, such as the one picking up unclaimed slaves)).

12. If the Brutii player plays the Veto card before anyone has placed in the Coin Bowl, does the next player to actively place in there get 7 or 5 denarii? (I would probably play 7, since I feel that the 7/5 split should depend on active placement)
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Heiko Eller
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barnetto wrote:

Okay... let's see if i can help out quickly ;-)


General

1. Can you discard two Nubian slaves plus 10 denarii for a Patron tile? (I played no, a Nubian has to be played with either a Greek or German, but am very unsure of this one. The rules specifically say you can't discard pairs of Nubians to get laurels/legions, but is silent in relation to the Patron tile.)

-> In fact it is possible to play 2 Nubians and pay for them to achieve a Patron ... but it is quite expansive. The rules do not forbid it.


2. The rules say that you can only put one meeple in the Refugium, but you can discard any number of pairs of Greeks/Germans. Can you discard both Greeks/Germans at the same time if you have them? (I would say yes)

-> Yes.


3. Does a Tribune count as a scroll for the Favour of the Emperor tile requirements? (I played yes, certainly)

-> Yes.

4. Can you obtain more than one Favour of the Emperor tile (I played yes, and pretty confident of this one too)

-> This seems to be missing in the rules. In my German version it is clearly stated, but probably because we revised them long ago. Sorry for that. Only one favor tile can be obtained.

5. Still 2 points for being the first to complete the set number of achievements? (Played yes)

-> The rules do not include those 2 points. I would need to clarify with the designer. My stomach tells me no... we decided to not give 2 points for ending the game, but this was long ago ;-)

Brutii family

6. Brutii tokens: Do you resolve all six tokens in a six player game (when others use only 5 meeples)? (Since the rules don't say use less than six and it could result in the Brutii family only having two actions if reduced to resolving only 5 of the 6 tokens, I played the Brutii resolves all six tokens each round, picking the last two immediately after each other if necessary. I realise that there are two different threads in here with differing conclusions and this is a pretty vital question in a six player game. Having played it using all 6 regardless, I think that using only 5 with a 50/50 chance of only getting two actions would be far too much of a disadvantage for the Brutii family. )

-> All six tokens are resolved.

7. Brutii and slave card: what exactly does "face-up slave cards not already claimed"? If a person goes to spot one on the Auctionarium and reveals the first two cards and one is a slave card, has that card now been "claimed", so that the Brutii player cannot take that slave card by replacing with two from his hand? (I played that it was already "claimed", but I think it is very debatable since there is no guarantee that the player on spot one will obtain it)

-> A good question. Maybe it is better to say: clearly claimed. The card of the Auctionarium is out of a pool you try to get, so it it is not claimed.

8. Brutii and Favour of the Gods card: the rules do not expressly say that the Brutii player needs to have a Vestal Virgin faction token to play this card. Is the fact that he can only play the card when someone else goes to the Pantheon and he has to take a risk on the actual card there without looking at it to offset the fact he doesn't need the Vestal's faction token first? Or is the need for a Vesgal Virgin token implicit? (I'm really on the fence on this one!)

-> Indeed the Brutii does not need to have a vestal virgin to resolve this card.

9. Brutii and the Matrona tile: I think there is an error in the rules here. In the rules it states that the Brutii player who has the Matrona tile only gets the extra two Favour tiles if they have played the Favour of the Emperor action card "this turn". This seems to imply you would need to play that card two rounds in a row to take advantage of the Matrona tile ie in the round in which the next round preparation (phase 8) occurs and the following one! That seems harsh (and inconsistent with how it works for other players). (I played it the normal way (ie get the two tiles in Phase 8 if you have the Matrona tile and then you need to play the Favour of the Emperor card in the following round) and assumed the reference to "this round" was simply an error.)

-> Let's see if i can solve this ... The Matrona tile allows the Bruti player to obtain (through the Official action card) in phase 6 the Matrona which grants him two Favor of the Emprtor tiles at the end of the round (phase 8). Now he has 2 tiles. Now he needs to play the Favour of the Emperor card (in a an upcoming round) to fulfill one of the tiles.

10. Brutii and the Refugium: the normal rule is that a player can only place one meeple in the Refugium. Can the Brutii player overcome this by playing the Proconsul piece in the Refugium and the Patron card? (I would have said this is not allowed.)

-> Rules do not forbid that. He is still placing only one meeple.

11. Brutii and the Princeps tile: does this allow the Brutii player to pick two tokens in a row (instead of placing two meeples)? (Probably, but actually in many circumstances this wouldn't be a benefit to the Brutii anyway as the Brutii player often benefits from waiting to see what others are doing (except for certain cards, such as the one picking up unclaimed slaves)).

-> This is a possible interepretation of the rule, but quite free. Without deeper discussion with the designer i would say no, he does not pick two tokens. But i agree that it is not a good plan anyway to do so.

12. If the Brutii player plays the Veto card before anyone has placed in the Coin Bowl, does the next player to actively place in there get 7 or 5 denarii? (I would probably play 7, since I feel that the 7/5 split should depend on active placement)

-> Yes. 7 it is.



Have fun playing in ancient Rome ;-)
Heiko
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Gary Barnett
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Many thanks for taking the time to reply and clear up many of my queries.

I'm glad to see that I played it mostly correctly - in fact, when on the fence, I ruled any ambiguities against myself as the Brutii player. This included the Vestal Virgin faction question, so I am now able to silently bask in the knowledge that I would actually have won my game as the Brutii player had I played that rule correctly!

Great game

Gary
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